FEES - PRICING FOR STORYTELLERS
(excerpts from posts)

Library Fees:
Query: I am curious about what kinds of fees folks charge for doing library programs. I live in a the Columbus, Ohio area. For the past eight years I have charged libraries $125 for a performance. (discounted to $100 for a second performance). I am a librarian's daughter...I want storytelling to be available for libraries! I know that funding for programs (Summer Reading and other times) is diminishing. I have discussed this with a couple of folks in this area. I am curious what you all think. Some people say it too much...others say not enough. I am comfortable with my fee for libraries.But I want to be competative, too. I am eager to hear from librarians, too! What do you think is fair, reasonable, and affordable for bringing in storytellers to libraries? I want libraries to know that I will work within their budget. Do libraries think you're "too eager" if you state this?
Beverly C.

1) The question of fees is one I've had for some time. I hope others will share their fees with the list, because it does give us an idea of whether we are competitive in our fees.

This summer I'm charging $150 for one library show, and $120 for additional shows booked by the same library on the same day. I also charge for my travel. I've gone to .45 per mile round trip. (I had it at .35/mile, but with gas prices being so high, I decided to charge more.) I figure this amount compensates me for my time, wear and tear on the car, and actual gas and oil expenses.

I am willing to negotiate with a library if they feel my fee is too high, but so far none of the libraries I've negotiated with asked me to lower my fee. A couple of libraries that contacted me didn't go ahead and book a performance, however. They didn't say if the fee was the reason.

I am still rather new at the business of storytelling. I started promoting myself and charging more professional fees year before last. Last year I was feeling very good about having tripled my gross income from the previous year, until I figured out my taxes for 2004. When I figured out all my expenses connected with my storytelling business I discovered that I had actually LOST money doing storytelling last year! I am hopeful that I will actually show a profit in 2005.
Judith W.

2) Judith wrote: I've gone to .45 per mile round trip. (I had it at .35/mile, but with gas prices being so high, I decided to charge more.) The official IRS mileage rate for 2005 was raised to 40.5 cents per mile, effective January 1st.
Leanne J.

3) Most libraries in my area will pop for $150.00. However, I tell some performers for the showcase I'm in charge of that they can stipulate $600.00 per day. But break it down to 300 and 300 for two shows and 200 each for three. That's a number that the libraries can handle. My agent usually gets me more than my fee, but it includes my travel and his 20 percent. So, it kinda sorta works out. I don't have a rigid rate. My Southern IL region is not a gold mine. So, I have to be flexible. I too feel like I really want to get to these hard to get to, small libraries.

There is another kink in the equation. The session you tell for may just be a weekly thing at the library. Then the 150 seems reasonable. Or, it could be the big ta-da at the beginning or end of the SRP, then it is reasonable to ask for more. Also, if you do preschool storytimes, it's mostly done in-house. So, if they even pop for 125 it's a big deal.
Marilyn K.

4) From the many emails I am getting - seems like library fees range from $80 - $500. Some folks who have the higher fees, will offer to work within the library's budget. Some folks will do a "budget"-priced performance in exchange for muliple bookings later in the year. There are some folks who don't budge on their fee. Everyone works the best way for themselves.

Fees seem to be as different as tellers and size of the city.

When a couple of folks locally told me that my $125 was too high for libraries....well, I was - frankly - very surpised. Back in 1997 when I raised my price to $125 for libraries...I thought I was making huge money. I never raised my fee because I moved and the libraries in Ohio didn't "know" me.
Beverly C.

5) We tend not to charge mileage, just have a local fee, a New England fee, and a tour fee. But-- we will be featured "new voices"* at Jonesborough this October, and part of the deal is travel expenses. We don't fly, except to the Pacific Northwest, because of Leanne's harp, so we'll be driving down in stages in our grand caravan. Does anybody know how the folks at the National figure travel expenses? Is it a per-mile thing?
Tim J.

Query:
So, I have some questions: is it "fair" for an out-of-town performer, who is accustomed to lower fees in her own community, to come into town and do a lot of performing, making local performers seem too expensive? Are local performers pricing themselves out of the market--maybe they would get more gigs if they charged less? Should I have found out what the prevailing fees were in this area, and charged accordingly? Or, should I not worry about it, and just charge what I felt was a fee that would reward me for my work and cover expenses?
Judith W. 10/21/05
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1) My two cents:
No, it is not "fair" for an out-of-town performer to come into town and by his or her lower rates, put downward pressure on the prevailing market price.

As an artist, I feel ethically bound to support the storytelling community, so yes, if it were me, I would find out what the market rate was, and charged accordingly. (Unless I were going to lose money on the deal. I have no ethical qualms about charging MORE than the local tellers).

HOWEVER: I understand that is how the market works. There's nothing to stop you from setting any price you want-- it may not be "fair" but it is the way of the world.

Just curious to know how you would feel if the situation were reversed: where an out-of-town teller came into your market and snapped up gigs at a lower rate? Are there any venues that you yourself introduced to storytelling? In that case, you've built awareness, done work, and then someone else comes along to profit on that at your expense...

The pricing question is not limited to out-of-towners. I've only just begun to get invitations to perform in local schools. In that setting, I'm an unknown quantity, not established. So it is appropriate that I should charge less than the established storytellers. But I'm not going to undercut them.

Luckily for me, Young Audiences is an arts-in-the-schools broker that has a public catalog that lists fees for storytelling assemblies and residencies in my geographic area. I was able to see what the top name tellers were charging, and what the "new" tellers (some, like me, with years of performing experience, but just moving into the educational market) market rate was. I set my fee to be in line with those artists I feel have equivalent experience and name recognition (i.e., little to none).
Tim E. 10/21/05
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Response: I guess I wouldn't consider it "profiting at MY expense." The venues that I have cultivated will still appreciate my talents--they might hire someone else just to have some variety. I think any time an out-of-town performer performs in my town, it enriches everyone. We get to hear someone different. If they charge less, then the venue has more money to hire me later. If a school decides to hire someone less expensive instead of me, then so be it. There will be other schools that will hire me at my fee. We can't start thinking about limited gigs in a community that can be "snapped up" and then there aren't any more. It is important to affirm that there are unlimited possibilities so we don't start limiting ourselves, or feeling resentful. Such feelings will cut off our prosperity more than other tellers taking our gigs away from us.
On the other hand, I agree that it is a good idea to find out what the prevailing fees are in a community, and try to charge accordingly. Sometimes, I have to charge LESS than my "normal" fee because of the prevailing fees being charged.
Judith W. 10/21/05
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2) I heard this mentioned at the National Storytelling Conference, and discussed among local storytellers out in my area.

This is a hypothetical but potentially real scenario:
Baby boomers start retiring and begin to take up mini-careers for part-time income. Hobbies become small businesses. And thus a new crop of retiree storytellers enters the market. They don't need full-time income if they've already got social security, a pension, or retirement savings. They can charge less. And so they do, because they love storytelling, and want to provide the community a "service" and so tell at schools, parks, around town, wherever, at a "bargain" price.

That's all very well and good-- but now the freelance, self-supporting storytellers who have been in the market for ten, twenty, approaching thirty years... They're well known and charge premium prices, and deservedly so, since they've got the experience. They may also have mortgages, insurance, and college tuition for kids to pay for. Now they find gigs disappearing as newer, cheaper storytellers in the market (And schools with limited funds need to cut expenses).

Retirees taking up storytelling is not new. But demographics of our aging population suggest that this scenario will be more likely to happen.

A challenge to plan for, to be sure. Any self-employed artist will have to shrewd about marketing, and about positioning oneself and promoting one's experience and value: it is, after all, running a business.

And I don't blame the retirees.

The storytelling community welcomes more storytelling. But I'm curious to hear from that segment of the community that needs to make a living at it, how economics plays into this.

(Storytelling is not a full time job for me. Next year, I'll double my current income from storytelling, and it will make up not more than 1% of my household income.)

One of these days some entrepreneurial festival is going to find a way to outsource its storytelling to foreign countries, and then we'll all be floundering.
Tim E. 10/21/05
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3) The questions you've raised give us something really meaty to chew on.

Here's what I think the fundamental situation is. I'll put it in terms of a story I heard, one of the many 'seeker after truth' parables.

Our hero has gone through all the tests and trials, looked for a guru in the high and low places, humbled himself etc. etc.

Finally he realized he is in the prescience of a true master, an enlightened one. He waits at the entrance of the cave for a week and finally is invited in for an audience.

'Master, master... what is the meaning of life?" he asks.

The master looks at the seeker incuriously and replies somewhat sarcastically..."Sure, sure, you want me to tell you the secret of life. I'll tell you, then you'll tell someone else, then they'll tell someone else then EVERYONE will know."

Storytelling is still at heart a folk art. Most of us, even those of us, and I am one of them who are trying to make a full time living with (not from!) storytelling are delighted when our listeners catch the fever and want to tell themselves. As soon as we begin to hoard the stories, or the storytelling way of life, we have turned stories from a gift to a commodity (see Lewis Hyde's the Gift for more on this).

So baby boomers, retirees, generations XYZ and beyond all want to tell... heck... pretty soon even preschoolers are going to want to tell stories! Then EVERYONE will know the Stories.....

Ah well... that said, now I have to send out some more publicity packages...
But first... now it's off to the Taos Storytelling Festival.
Bob K. 10/21/05
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Response: And then we get to MO-T ELL's motto (a quote from Beowulf) "We have heard it all before and we delight in the retelling." We will continue to grow and tell and tell and tell. . . . . . . .

If the popularity of storytelling results in more people considering storytelling for more places and events, the "market" can expand. (maybe even enough to cut into the casinos' profits?? -- one of my own biases coming through, sorry).
Mary G. 10/21/05
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4) Being one of those who won't get serious about professional storytelling in terms of marketing until I retire, I would still think the law of supply and demand would work here. Those tellers who are "a cut above" the rest would, in my estimation, be in high demand and thus could command a higher fee than the rest.

There might be some dilution in pricing from retirees entering the market, but I wonder if it would really have that much of an impact. Remember some time ago on the List we discussed the "50 Dollar" tellers vs. the higher fee tellers? There was quite a long thread on that, as I recall, concerning quality and demand. Isn't this discussion of retirees entering the market the second side of the same coin?
Tim M. 10/21/05
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5) It may well be that many of the people charging only $50 are really $200 tellers and don't know it yet, or $200 tellers who are discounting their price to help out venues that are less financially able -- a very worthwhile thing to do -- Remember Elizabeth's challenge at NSN conference this summer?

Meanwhile, that reminds me of a story someone sent long ago about a man who paid a large bride-price because he wanted a (and I can't remember the value, but it was big) wife, and because she was valued highly, she acted accordingly. Anyone remember that story??
Mary G. 10/21/05
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6) Interesting line of thinking and very thought provoking. I am planning on retiring in about 13 years and will do a lot more telling then...hopefully.

What the newly retired will not have is experience first of all. There is nothing better than a good name in a community or your own state to get gigs. The teller that keeps at it for years should have a reputation that will give them a leg up.

There is also the $50 teller, as you mentioned. I did a gig last week for a church. I did give them a discount, but was amazed that they also paid a balloon clown to come and entertain as well as a $50 teller... it was a long day of activities for the church. I was later in the day and they told me they weren't sure that they could get the kids to listen. The bad balloon clown and the $50 teller didn't do so well. It really wasn't a problem and the gig went great. They realized the difference in my abilities and those of the $50 teller. They didn't know either of us when they booked me. Now they know the difference.

The experienced teller will do well to promote themselves. Small newspapers will put press releases in and I have had little trouble getting things in if they are worthwhile. Set yourself up for being known! Send out info, press info, post cards, letters, e-mails, etc. Hand out tons of business cards - this is the best advertising you can do!!! Make sure everyone knows you are a teller.

Folks won't pay more than once for a bad teller. Hone your craft, make sure your reputation is solid and folks know what they are getting. Blood Sweat and Beers may get a few gigs but nothing like Blood Sweat and Tears would!!! Suggest a sample CD from you for the customer... suggest they get one from the "retiree" also. I encourage folks to do a "juried" selection process and know what they are hiring.

Also, I don't know if they will charge less. If they are good, they deserve the gigs as much as the teller with 20 years experience. They deserve the good fees as much as anyone if they can produce. Frankly I know a teller that has told for a good while and it one of the worst I have ever heard.

I think the market is there for anyone who does a good job and works to get business. Build a better mousetrap and you'll do fine. Make yourself into the product needed and then sell to the needs of the customer! That will correct any problem with more service providers.
Stephen H. 10/21/05
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7) I am new to the group. I am an elementary school librarian for 12 years. I got started telling stories many years ago, for church, Girl Scout and Boy Scout camps. 5 years ago joined a Guild and consider myself a storyteller. I live in South Texas and I do mean South. I am proud to say I am one of those $50 per hour tellers. I would like to know what the difference between a $50 teller and a $200.

They realized the difference in my abilities and those of the $50 teller. They didn't know either of us when they booked me. Now they know the difference.
Becky M. 10/21/05
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8) When I used that term I wasn't talking about folks who actually charge $50 per hour but was talking more generally about storytellers who are dedicated to their craft, work hard and do a good job and maybe those who decide to tell just because.

It really isn't a put down of anyone. It was a circumstance I found myself in last Saturday when someone said to me, "Well, Ms. X only charges $50, so why should we pay you more?" My point to them was that I was worth it. They did agree, by the way.

Also, if you remember, the original e-mail had that phrase as part of the discussion. Also, you might remember that I ended my thoughts with the comment that if they were good the retirees and new $50 tellers deserved the gigs as much as experienced tellers.

If you knew me you would know that I am not one to do anything mean spirited, I just was suggesting some ways to get business, not pass judgement on anyone for the fee they charge.
Stephen H. 10/21/05

9) Down with boomers! We're a drag on the health care system. We're going to live too long. We'll be slugs who won't contribute to a community's tax base. And now, gosh darn it (substitute juicier words), we're going to steal all the good gigs from you whipper snappers.

We humans always seem to need an Other. Boomers are just a convenient target on which to pin fears.

The "problem" is not new. I've had that discussion for a quarter of a century, only back when I had the first one it wasn't boomers. We had other feared storytelling miscreants, such as people with jobs who could afford to practically give away their stories, of all things.

The number of organizations that have actually hired a real, live storyteller is tiny compared to the numbers of possibilities. We don't have to fight over the pie. We just have to make it bigger.
Cathryn W. 10/21/05
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Response: Besides that, you remind some of us how old we are getting. I taught you boomers when you were in the second grade.
Rita K. 10/21/05
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9) Stephen H. didn't start the "$50 Dollar" label. I did. It was in reference to another thread either earlier this year or last on this List - I can't remeber exactly when. The label had then and does now to do with the price a teller charges, not the quality of the teller's work. That having been said, in this country where the almighty dollar seems to be the measure of almost everything, the "$50 Dollar" label can reflect, erroneously or not, in some people's minds the quality or value of a teller.

As you probably have seen by now from subsequent posts, other tellers on this List, myself included, don't use the "$50 Dollar" label as a derogatory slap at tellers who charge $50.00 for their services. I, too, was until recently a "$50 Dollar" teller. I started out with that fee because I was an unknown quantity, and I needed to get my foot in the door of the local libraries. But experience and expenses are making it neccesary for me to increase my fees.

Since I was the one who started the use of this label on this thread, I apologize for any slight of character you may have suffered. I certainly did not intend that to anyone on this list, or off it for that matter.
Tim M. 10/21/05
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Response to above: See? That's exactly how it works. That $50 fee gets you started, builds the resume while giving you valuable experience. We all start out that way. But we grow. And then we're worth more. "A workman is worthy of his hire."
Sharon K.C. 10/22/05
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Response: Well, what's the difference between a $50 teller, a $200 teller, a $2000 teller and ... a free, volunteer or pro bono teller/telling.

One answer: There may be no difference at all or all the difference in the world ... no telling.

The cost of something is not only in a tangible fee, but in the intangibles as well. How do we put a price on something? Not easy. Perhaps it's in the ear of the listener ... the heart of the listener ... the heart of the teller.

I don't think we value, sometimes in our society, the free, the less expensive ... many things are cost based ... or we overly exaggerate the cost of something to put it out of reach.
Mary K.C. 10/22/05
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Response: It doesn't seem to me like a retiree who is turning a hobby into a mini-career could offer what a full time teller with 30 years experience could. It is a real issue, but I always place my faith in the belief that if you building a strong product or service there will be interest in what you do.
Wendy G. 10/22/05
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Response: When I began, I charged $50, also. Now, I've traveled nearly 20 years down the Storytelling Trail. Through those years, I have told to audiences as small as one and as large at 2,000. I've told to all ages and in diverse circumstances. I've told in fields and theatres, on truck beds and velvet curtained stages, in the middle of milling festival crowds, on street corners; in band rooms, closets, and basements; in pre-schools, nursing homes, and everything in between; on PBS, NPR, and TNN; in libraries, schools, museums, churches; on mountain tops and beside woodland streams, in the rain, heat, cold, and windy...you get the picture. That's hard-won experience. Since many of my stories are historical tales, I spend many hours, sometimes years, preparing, honing, polishing those works. I am a professional. I charge more than $50 an hour now. In fact, I charge more than $200.

Conversely, tonight I'm traveling about 25 miles to tell pro bono at a state park. The state cultural arts program for which I used to tell crashed a few years ago. But I told the naturalist, who has become a good friend through the years, that I would continue to tell for him. He'll buy me a good dinner, and I will go out beside the huge fireplace to tell. I'll sing some mountain ballads, too. His audience, which will pack the great room of the park hotel, lounging in overstuffed chairs, sofas, and ottomans, will be most congenial. Young and old will become involved in Appalachian tales like Tailybone, How Coon Gets His Meat, Brother Rabbit Goes a-Huntin', Wait till Jesse Comes, and who knows what else. Those folks will appreciate the stories. Some will ask for contact information. But to do it for free was my professional decision.
Sharon K.C. 10/22/05
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Response: I would like to echo what some of the other tellers have said in response to your question about the $50 vs. $200 teller.

I also started out charging very little for my storytelling (even LESS than $50!), but I wasn't spending most of my time cultivating a storytelling business then. I think I was a good storyteller when I charged $25, but I was working at another job, and storytelling was more of a hobby for me then. A little over two years ago, I decided to consider myself a "professional storyteller," and devote the majority of my time to this business. For every hour that I'm actually telling stories, I probably spend five hours or more working on my costumes, researching, memorizing and polishing stories, putting together programs, designing and printing fliers, posters and press releases, writing letters, entering names and addresses into my database, mailing out publicity, attending conferences and workshops to hone my skills, working on my web site, and reading the storytell posts (I learn a LOT from these posts, but it does take time). Then there are my expenses: travel, postage, books, web site hosting, phone, internet server, printer ink and paper, professional printing expenses, clothing, office supplies, taxes--etc.

I'm sure most venues don't realize how much time and money goes into a thirty minute program!
Judith W. 10/26/05
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Response: This thread reminds me of what retailers in the U.S. say about superstore-chain Walmart, who charges lower prices as a retailing strategy (not as a way of giving something away!). When a Walmart comes to town, many locally owned, smaller stores go out of business. So there are some strong feelings about this! (Leave aside for the moment, if you can, Walmart's labor practices and strong-arm tactics with suppliers.)

The problem with complaining about (or ignoring, minimizing, etc.) competition based on price is that it sometimes keeps us from taking charge of the true issue: unless you're selling a commodity (an usually not even then), you don't want to compete on price! It's bad for your business, bad for your health, and guaranteed to make you crabby eventually.

Why is it bad? Because you can't win for long. If you really want to keep ahead as a low-price seller, you have to work harder and harder for less and less. (I guess you could also turn into a Walmart of sorts, and try to use your size, etc., to keep out others who would charge even less. That's a lonely, dreary road.)

What's the alternative? Deliver the kind of value that those who compete on price can't give. In the case of retailers threatened by Walmart, that means individualized customer service, specialty products, and more.

In the case of storytellers, it often means finding a good niche - where you offer something that meets a need, build relationships with those who have that need, and build on your successes with those people to meet even more needs. (This means creating additional programs, products or services for those who have loved what you've done so far. It means keeping in touch with them - and more.)

Imagine the storyteller who develops a program for schools, say, that helps children meet certain testing standards while actually educating them at the same time. Is any newcomer to storytelling - of any age - going to be able to take business away from such a storyteller?

Of course, any one niche will eventually change, die up, or sprout serious competition. (It make take many years, though.) That's why it's important, once you have become comfortable in one niche, to adapt your successful programs, products, etc., to additional markets. Once you have your "help children want to read through storytelling" program working in schools, you might find a way to market it to libraries or directly to parents. (Going beyond our usual markets is especially juicy. I heard recently that Honda (Toyota?) was closing its plant in Alabama because of illiteracy among workers. How about a version of your "help people want to read" program created for auto manufacturers?)

The same strategy will apply to those who tell for "pleasure" as opposed to "learning a skill". What's the hidden need or desire that your storytelling meets? It's hard to learn to describe this, but once you do, you'll be offering something that is more difficult to compete with. Once you involve people in their hearts and spirits, and build a long-term relationship with them based on that involvement, they are unlikely to worry about any difference in price.
Doug L. 10/29/05
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LODGING FEES AND CONTRACTS
Query: I am hoping you will share some of your experiences, thoughts, and wisdom with me.
1) When you are hired for a performance, at what point do you decide it is better if you stay over the night before? In other words, how far away does the venue have to be for you to stay over?
2) If you do stay over, either before or after, do you quote that separately to your client or build it into the fee?
3) Do you have standard rate or does that depend on the cost of the lodging?
4) Do customers balk at paying for lodging and if so, how do you address the additional cost with them?

In going over an upcoming contract I realized I would have to leave my house before the crack of dawn to arrive in time for my first of three shows, fighting Boston traffic all the way. Does the word "frazzled" come to mind? :) I realize now that I will certainly need to drive up the night before and stay over so I can be in good shape for the performances throughout the day. I did build mileage rates into my fee but not lodging cost. My fault for sure so I will just have to grin and bear it but I want to be prepared for next time.

I would appreciate it if you could share how you determine when it is necessary to stay over and how you build that into your fee.
Karen C. 4/15/06
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Response: This is what I do based on my own personal choice. It works well for me. If I have an early day or later evening performance and I feel driving to or from at such an early or late time would be difficult.... I do choose to stay over.

I find a hotel close to my performance site and I call to get rates. If I feel they are high, I call around but try to stay close to my site for convenience sake. Sites like Travelocity or the like are not always the "best" rates, I have found. I do have AAA and that saves 10-15% in some places. I typically call the hotel or the hotel reservation services direct.

I round off the cost of the hotel.... as in ( 89.52 with tax = 90.00) and add it to my normal fee. I do tell my client that I will be staying over night and the fee includes all expenses for travel and hotel.

For me, and here again its just a personal choice... I always round off my fee to include miles and hotel.. making the lump sum fee all inclusive instead of breaking down every single expense.

Ive found that making it simple for the client is very important... the easier the artist is to deal with, the sooner the artist will be hired back or recomended to others.

I've never, in sixteen years, had anyone balk at this method.

Disclosure: The above statement is based on true life experience and personal choice. It works well for me and I continue to use it today.
David Joe M. 4/15/06
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Response: It's a good question. I prefer not to leave home before 6 a.m., and I prefer not to drive more than two hours at night (less during the fall rut season for deer!). I do give clients a breakdown of prices - most opt to reschedule at a time more convenient for me than pay for lodging. I give clients the option of whether they want to provide the housing, or if they want me to do my own booking (and I ask for their recommendations of a nice, clean place to stay).

I am thinking of requiring lodging for any one-way commutes of 3-hours or longer, though. I just had one a couple weeks ago, three hours each way, and I was exhausted by the time I got home. Just getting old, I guess....

I've also been experimenting with adding a $10 meal fee for each 4 hours of travel, depending on the location and the venue.
Leanne J. 4/15/06
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Response: Let me add a note about lodging and fees. When I travel - I do like to do a circuit of storytelling where I travel and see some country as I tell - I tend not to single out the cost of lodging and food. I include them in a lump sum as DJ does. I learned my lesson a few years ago about this when I gave prices itemized and a school in the south decided that they would put me up in a home and deduct the cost. They were wonderful folks and a bit pressed for cash, so I said OK.

AND STAYED 2 NIGHTS in a home with lots of cats!!!! I am terribly allergic to cats!!!! I hate cats rubbing on me, sitting on my bed, getting dander all over my stuff!!! I was miserable for days.

Additionally, I would rather have the freedom in a motel to relax and not feel like I have to visit. I get more done, feel rested and enjoy the travel this way.

Plus, no one can question why I charge "this much" for lodging or food.
Stephen H. 4/16/06
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Response: Stephen brings up a wonderful point about "host family homes." There was a time in my career when I welcomed the opportunity to stay at a host family home. Ive learned, over the years, that.... much like Stephens experience (the cats,) you just never know what you are getting into.

Most "host family home" opportunities, for me, have worked out well.... but there are horror stories especially for the long term visits (three days or more.)

I agree, staying in a hotel is best unless you know the host and feel compatible. I can tolerate adversity for one nite pretty well (cats, screaming kids, mold, etc.) but long term can become a nightmare.

Recently I have noticed a decline in offers of host family homes though.... may be a trend.
David Joe M. 4/16/06
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Response: I know we all have stories about our expierences I played at a senior housing project.I was promised they would feed me I expect a nice supper from thes little ol ladies and I got peanut chips and dips. Another time I did a volunteer thing for an adult care center for 3 years and then the lady caled me one day to set up a date to play and asked me how much they haave been paying me ? I had done programs for over 3 years for nothing and that was the end of that. I never went back I felt like I was taken advantage of because of my kindness. They were paying other people and not me. My time was just as valuable as any other artist. My friends have told me to draw up a simple contract. I stick with that.
Gary G. 4/16/06
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Response: If I start early in the morning and I have a long drive (over an hour and a half) I usually ask for a place to stay. I have found that if the contractor is a local school or library that most of the time they can get either special rates or comps from the local hotel. It is ALWAYS a separate charge from my fee if I have to provide the lodging. That is one reason most contractors like to get the place for me to stay. I have never really had any complaints about them paying for lodging. Most times for a late night performance, I would rather drive home and sleep in my own bed, so I unless it is a REALLY long drive I don't worry about the lodging. It is very important, however, that you are fresh for an early morning program and it really helps not to add a couple hours of windshield time to your day!
Steve O. 4/16/06
•••••
Response: 1. I won't drive at night, after a long performance, for more than an hour. Otherwise
I think like a trucker or the bazillion bus drivers I've used for groups I've booked. The
drivers will not work for more than 8.5 hours a day- driving, waiting or anything. Period. It's
dangerous for me to be on the road for several hours, work and present, then get back
on the road for several more hours.

2. I quote only one fee to the customer. No matter if they are in my local area or across the country, my fee quote includes everything for me to arrive at their doorstep just like I lived next door. For example, next week I am in Kansas and Kentucky on two gigs. For the fee the sponsors have paid, I arrive at their event. They don't have a separate invoice for airfare, lodging, rent a car etc.

3. Part of the art of being a professional is quoting fees with confidence. The amount of $xx is what
it takes to bring a pro to your door. I am not here to argue with a sponsor. If they can't afford it, I can't do it.It is unfair to my family's well being to do otherwise.

I also do not stay in private homes as a matter of course. Too many horror stories at that.

On a side note, here is what I am learning as I listen to and coach tellers- the folks who charge higher fees and do so with confidence are the ones who are the busiest these days. I was shocked to have one of my clients (who is not a big name at all) tell me how much he charges per day to work in a school....and he's getting it. I was the student on that one.

Be confident. For what it's worth.
Sean B. 4/19/06
•••••
Response: So does that mean that if someone calls you from a distance away, you say you'll get back to them on the fee, since it would take some research to figure out plane, etc.? Or do you have a standard fee no matter where you're going?
Lynn R. 4/20/06
•••••
Response: Over the years, unless a sponsor particularly asks for me to include the hotel and/or meals
in the total sum, I usually opt for a fee plus travel and board. If I am traveling for more than two days, I add a per diem as well to make sure that any meals etc that come up can be taken care of as well. I also include in my contract the approximate cost of any taxi, bus or car service needed from home to and from airports. In this way, I don't have to do the research as well as make the reservations. Up front, by the way, I also include a small paragraph about cancelling shows. If it is cancelled within two months I ask for at least half the fee since I can not rebook a performance in such a short time. My contract also asks that all recording and or photographing be done with my permission. I inquire about the sale of books and tapes.. any percentage that they might take off the top; whether I should send in advance or carry with me and I do ask if other performers tend to sell a lot of materials so I can gage what to take along. Most times sponsors are very appreciative of the details that make it easier and a better situation for them as well.

There were just too many times when I ended up spending far more money than was allotted. usually, organizations also can make special arrangements for discounted prices for hotels as well.
Laura S. 4/20/06
•••••
Response: Much of what I do is in the Mid-West and I drive. If the timing and/or distance requires overnight I include that. Mileage I calculate from MS Streets and Trips. I have allows for staying in homes but usually the booker puts me up in a hotel. I generally let them take care of that as sometimes they can swing a deal for themselves that I can't. Staying in homes can be a problem although I have not had any problems. Some groups I have performed for, for example the Billy Graham Organization has a policy against allowing their performed to stay in homes. They want them to relax and get sleep and not take a chance on problems.

My recent Mexico gig was fantastic. Above my fee they booked the airline, hotel, provided meals, and gave us a bag of Pesos for misc expenses. They were very good.

I have had some very nice experiences in private homes and met some neat people that way. That is a risk though. We could run into a weird host. So far not, know on wood.

My contract covers those things. There is an example on my Tips site www.drango.com/tips. I have the master file that I call up and edit as appropriate for each venue. I don't always use a contract, just when the client wants or I feel I should.
Bob S. 4/20/06
•••••
Response: My thanks for everyone's thoughts and experiences on my initial question. I appreciate all of the expereinces you have shared.

Bob, I do have a question on your above statement. Why do you choose not to send a contract each time? I make sure I send a contract out for each performance, even if it is a pro bono gig. My reasons are three fold:

1) It covers me and the client, for any unforseen problems that might cause a performance to be cancelled, such as illness, weather, etc.

2) I believe it adds a level of professionalism when dealing with clients.

3) It offers peace of mind for both myself and the client by locking in the specific date and time.

My contract has changed over the years. Initially, it was very simple, no mention of cancellatons clauses, late fees, etc. However, over the years I have made changes to cover as many possibilities that may occur, for every one concerned. I am curious as to why you do not feel it is necessary at certain times and what makes those times different from others?
Karen C. 4/20/06
•••••
Response: I think you are right. However its just my style of working. I do many church shows and seldom use a contract. Libraries almost always want one. I have an agent that gets me shows from time to time and I trust them. I set the fee I want with them and they charge the client what they want. I know maybe I'm getting the short end but I am getting what I want so I.m happy. I book most of my own shows. If they start booking most of my shows I will revisit our relationship. Local birthday parties I just work on a hand shake, sometimes via e-mail.Sometimes I will get a booking that I like but have some odd feelings about. There I get a contract. I did a wedding once that was very much MONEY. There I not only got a contract but most of the money. (I used to me a professional Photographer and learned to get money up front. I have been out of the business for over 30 years and believe it or not but I have one wedding that has not picked up their pictures. They never will. I don't think the marriage lasted to the next morning. It was unbelievable and we were glad just the finish and get out of there! Fortunately the pix were paid for.)

So I probably should but don't always. I've never been burned yet although I did have to write a couple of letters to one venue.
Bob S. 4/20/06
•••••
Response: I always use a contract. In the past I've been willing to use my client's contracts, if they have one. But as of yesterday I've decided now to insist that my own contract also be signed. It's designed to protect me and my time, as well as specifying type of program, date and time of program, expected audience, payment, room set-up, etc. It also clearly stipulates a cancellation policy - I just got burned on one of those last night, hence my decision.

Most institutions understand the need for a contract. When I am dealing with smaller groups, some are hesitant when I bring it up. I always invite them to contact me if there is anything in the contract that they question. I've only twice had a client request a change.

My accountant husband also advices me to always use a contract. If the IRS ever decides to audit me, I have a clear paper trail for them.
Leanne J. 4/26/06
•••••
Response: A couple of stories about when I DIDN'T do a contract: a friend's daughter's birthday party. We arrived at her house for the party and no one was there. I phoned, nothing! Luckily my partner had an intuition to check the local school playground and there they all were ready for stories. If I had done a contract, that would have given me an in writing place to double check the location.It also gives me a place to get a number for the time of the event(often a cell phone number). I generally only need that if I DON'T have a number with me. A near disaster!

Another event was booked through a friend for a massive Passover event where a group in a hotel was booking multiple performers. We just had "an agreement" that was done verbally. When I arrived at my appointed time, I was told that I had missed the performance by 2 hours. We eventually negotiated that I share a set with a magician (a horrible audience, all the adults talked in the back.) But then I ws never, ever paid. The booking agent skipped town. I had nothing in writing either to prove that I was there at the appointed time or that they owed me money. A HARD lesson.

I really try hard now to get it in writing. If people are uncomfortable with the word contract, I use performance agreement. I also do more and more of these by email these days, asking that people email me confirmation that they are accepting the agreement.
Patti C. 4/26/06
•••••
Response: Yes, I do a lot of perfomance agreements by email. I have a hard copy to put in my files that has all the pertinent info on it. I also have a lovely contract designed by our own Angela Davis for those more formal occasions or for when others ask for it. It's just another step...fill it out, send electronically to sponsor, get it back, sign and resend. With a performance agreement it's like a cyber handshake with all the info I need and with the info the sponsor needs. Marilyn K/ 4/26/06
•••••
Response: Your mentioning not having the information with you and using the contract for that purpose is a problem we all face. We are having a discussion on the Ventriloquist list regarding similar issues. I thought it may be useful to Storytellers also. This is actually the material from two separate posts on the same subject. I did some editing to make it flow better but still it may seem to jump. The word Scripts and Stories are pretty much interchangeable.

First let me say that I began as a Storyteller which colors how I work. Storytellers do not memorize stories but learn them so they can "Tell" them. This is different than memorizing scripts. Because of this I learn my routines and don't use scripts per se. (Most Vents do memorize their scripts which is why I make this note.)

There are many different programs that can be used. I use Excel. For me this works well. It functions as a data base with search and sort capabilities. It is built in to Pocket PCs so it syncs with my desktop. I then have in in the field and can print from my pocket PC.

I have a single workbook with pages for: Character/Routines, jokes, stories, magic tricks. venues (I achieve after two years to another Excel file), Background (storyline) for each character, Riddles, and Themed shows. Each is titled with a 1-3 word title. The Description column has key words about the story or routine to jog my memory. I use columns for age appropriateness so I can sort. A tip: I use the first column as a sort column. I can run down the list putting a "x" in that column for those I want to possibly use. Then sort on that column and you can copy and paste into a Word document when planning a show.

To plan a show I open a new Word document. Then I pick the possible character. routines, stories, magic, and any jokes in the data base and paste them into the new word document. Then I organize the show and add the extra material just in case. This gives me a "set list" for the show so I can see at a glance what I'm doing and the order. I print this list at 26 pt so I can put it on the floor by my case a see it while standing.

I add the contact info (normal; size) to the set list. I also copy the set list at the bottom, delete all but equipment (usually magic props), and add a return after each. This gives me a check list to make sure I have everything packed, set up on stage, and put away after the show. Nothing worse that getting ready to do a trick and find you forgot to set it up!

This is not as complicated as it sound on paper. Others may have their own system but this has served me well. BTW: I save the set lists and often will call it up modify, and resave for a new venue.

I do occasionally write out a script to get my thoughts in order. More often I will just outline. When a routine/script is ready for use I name it with 1-2 words, not more than 3 words. In the data base I file them by that name. In the "Description" column I may used a series of words outlining the routine. I use the same technique to file Stories and Jokes.

When planning a show, I identify those modules that I might want to use, copy and paste them into a Word document, then cut and paste them into the order I want, keep some spares "just in case", delete what I didn't use, format and print the set list. The set list is then my "Contact" sheet, set list, check list, and file copy. Being a Word document is good since Pocket PCs have Word built in so I have my set list there also.

On my computer I file the set lists by name. The convention I use is to use the date+"set"+venue. Example: 20060425set Anytown Library. Using this type date allows sorting in date order. I have a folder for each year. The date is the date of the show. I use the same format for Contracts, etc replacing the word "set" as appropriate.

Each of us has techniques that have worked for us. How do others of you construct shows? This can be a useful thread for both new and experienced performers.

Here is a typical set list (comments in parentheses):
======================
20060121set XYZ Library (Venue)

(D: is Drango and the routines follow)
D: Hello, Tex, Stiff, Story;
(Story)
Anansi Friends;
(M: is for magic with the tricks following)
M: Table, 10' pole, Wand Broke-Collapse-Nest, Tube-Silks Many;
Do Not Open;
(Drawing Board and routine)
RMDB: Cletus;
M: Mis-Made Flag, All Alike Cards;
M: Bag Tear-Flower Bouquet, Dream Bag;
D: Goodbye

King & Hawk (Spare story just in case)

(Contact information copied from Outlook goes here. This includes times,
address, contact, tel numbers, fee, and any other info I may have.)

(Equipment/Prop Check list. Word allows this to be easily alphabetized.)
10' pole
All Alike Cards;
Bag Tear-Flower Bouquet
CD Player & CD
Dream Bag
Flag Pole America
FM Sound System
Mis-Made Flag
RMDB
Stegley
Stiff
Table
Tube-Silks Many;
Wand Broke
Wand Collapse
Wand Nest

(After the show I make this line from the set list to show what I actually did. This then in pasted into the data base.)

D: Hello, Tex, Stiff, Story; Anansi Friends; M: Table, 10' pole, Wand
Broke-Collapse-Nest, Tube-Silks Many; Do Not Open; RMDB: Cletus; M: Mis-Made
Flag, All Alike Cards; M: Bag Tear-Flower Bouquet, Dream Bag; D: Goodbye
===============================
The codes may not mean anything to you but they do to me. After the show I make any revision to have the list reflect what I actually did. I may also add comments about the show and/or venue.
Bob S. 4/26/06
•••••

CONTRACTS:
Funny thing about contracts, I've noticed that people sometimes don't catch when a contract says something they don't expect. I've just gotten 2 contracts where this happened. In the case of 1, the time was not what they were thinking, but they didn't notice it. I wouldn't have known they wanted an hr. earlier if I hadn't received the advance p.r. on the gig. (I always request any publicity, but that, too, is often ignored.) This instance happened because their plans changed. The other was a crazy mistake on my part. I was asked last year to submit a letter of intent to return the following year & then, recently, to send them a contract. By the time of the contract stage I was still allowing a year, even though I knew by now it would be this September. For some crazy reason I put 2007 & it, too, was signed. By coincidence I realized my mistake & said please change & initial it, but it was already in the mail back to me. The sponsoring party had no problem making a copy for me from their copy & sending it changed & signed back to me, but I was embarrassed at the slip-up.
LoiS S. 4/26/06
•••••

SALES/FEES
Well, it seems that in my mission to get storytelling on the map, I am doing a lot of approaching other groups about using storytelling. For example, a local theatre group is producing Medea this summer. I have proposed a telling of Jason and the Argonauts and how he hooks up with Medea as a pre-show or prologue to get the audience up to speed. I have also approached a local museum about storytelling that ties into their summer exhibit. Lots of other things in mind, but this problem is holding me back a little (a lot actually.)

One of the things I am stumped about is the fee thing. I feel a little awkward about the "price talk" when I am doing essentially a cold call, trying to convince the group they want this. Then I would be telling them how much to pay me for this thing they didn't know they needed until I brought it up. Yeah, obviously, I'm not entirely comfortable with the whole money thing. Does anyone with more sales savvy have any advice for how to navigate this? Also, any recommendations for books, etc. on this sort of sales. I know that I should be doing things differently, but I'm not sure how.

The museum is giving me the teeny-tiny budget thing. I know things are tight for them, but they are used to using volunteers and summer students and not paying much for them. See, if I had this worked out better, when I pitched it, I would have done a better job of expressing my qualifications, why they should pay for quality......

I don't really have a problem giving my fee when someone calls about a birthday party or such like. It is when I am the one making overtures where I have trouble.

Another question for the Canadians out there. How do you feel about Storytellers of Canada 'suggestion' of $125/hr. It seems very arbitrary, I don't know how they arrived at that number. I am trying to get a better idea of what other storytellers in Canada are actually charging. If there are any of you who don't mind, could you email me off-list about what you charge? This would solely be for my use in figuring what the scale is, wouldn't share with anyone. Is you fee for a birthday party different than a school gig or corporate function. I recall Dale Pepin saying he set his birthday party fee based on what other birthday party entertainers in his area charge. That seems more logical to me than the SC/CC idea.

Oooogh. I am really good at coming up with really good marketing ideas, I just need more experience in how to implement them. BTW, the Pirates of the Caribbean sequel is coming out July 7th. Have you got your pirate stories all ready to go?
Ruthanne E. 5/15/06
•••••
Response: You'll need to focus on getting agreement from them in many stages, so that they know they want what you are offering.

So first you would ask for their agreement to even listen to you, and progress from there. E.g. you would go through questions such as:

Do you have time to talk now?
Does your group want more.. (audiences, money, ideas, input of energy, appeal etc.)?
Can I suggest an idea to you?
Does that sound interesting?
Would you be willing to meet up and talk more?
Do you think you could work with me?
Do you have any budget to hire me?
Do you have a fee in mind?
Is that meant to be a joke?

...well, maybe not the last one. In between these questions you of course put your case and show why it would be a good idea. That means talking about the benefits to them. Benefits are crucial to get clear in your mind, and you must think about these from the group's point of view, not yours. Since you can't know everything about their approach, values, goals etc. you do need to get agreement from them about these benefits too - for instance it's no use arguing for how your contributions will increase audiences if they already have bigger audiences than they can cope with.

So you'll need to mix fact-finding (open-ended - how, what, when etc.) questions with agreement (yes/no) questions to progress their buy-in to your proposal. If you can get them to say yes...yes...yes...yes...etc. to bigger questions or a growing commitment then they will be psychologically prepared to make the final step of agreeing to act on your proposal since all the major obstacles will have been already dealt with.

Even if they ask your fee at the beginning, avoid answering until near the end (or at a further meeting) when they are clear on all the benefits and have agreed that they want them. You might also get them to agree to working together with you to find creative ways to provide your fees, or agree a conditional bonus if things work well or bring in good money. It's usually a good idea, when a fee is finally mentioned, to first ask what their budget is or what fee they could offer - you can then gauge their understanding of what you are worth. If they offer something much less than you would accept, you may decide you need to further emphasise the financial benefits of hiring you, before you come back with a suggestion of your preferred figure.

By having a clear idea of the conversational journey you want to take them on - which is after all what storytellers do for a living - and by directing the flow with lots of pertinent questions and good listening, you'll be in firm control of the conversation and can arrive at the moment of fee-agreement in the strongest position.
Tim S. 5/16/06
•••••
Response: Hmm - your mail has given me lots of insights into handling this tricky matter. One thing I always mention when it comes to telling people *my* fee is that I have to be flexible: my usual fee is pretty high but not everyone can meet that - so some flexibility is necessary.
Richard M. Germany 5/16/06
•••••
Response: I also have problems with the fee issue. I'm sending this to the whole list, as I think it is a community issue.

I have set a basic fee of $150 for a performance--no matter what length (well, I seldom go over 1 hour for one gig). I add travel expenses to this if the gig is located over about 25 miles from my home; I ask for 45 cents per mile. I charge less for birthday parties--I have a minimum charge of $65 which is just for showing up and telling stories. I also offer leading games, crafts, or creative drama, which takes up to one and a half hours. I charge $100 for storytelling and games; $150 for storytelling, crafts, or creative drama. I seldom have takers for the "expanded" parties--most people just want the $65 storytelling.

I negotiate fees for festivals--since I'm usually there for a while, but not telling all the time, charging for festivals is tricky. Also, I usually sell some CD's at festivals, making some money there, too. I'm actually telling at a local "art in the park" along with several other storytellers from our guild, and I'm not charging anything, but we will promoting our guild, and I can sell CD's. I'm looking at this as an opportunity to pass out my literature to a lot of people and help publicize our group. It also should be a fun day--I love art in the partk.

All my fees are open to negotiation, but usually people will pay my basic fee. If I'm telling in a different area, where the going rate for storytelling is more, I increase my fees so I'm not undercutting my fellow storytellers there. I will also lower my fees if I find out the going rate there is less than my usual charge.

I have also had a problem asking people for money. A friend gave me some wonderful advice many years ago. She said for me to say the affirmation: "I am worth every penny that I charge for my work." It is a good idea to say this affirmation several times daily. I still need to say it.
Judith W. 5/16/06
•••••
Response: I always include my fee schedule with my brochure, so when I am talking to groups they have that information up front. It also is there to talk about negotiated rates if they want to do more than just entertainment programming.
Steve O. 5/16/06
•••••
Response: 1. Always know what you can do for free. Do it as often as possible-tell stories as a way of life. The smiles are worth more than money and they will go out and find you money with far less agrivation than dealing with the comercial world will....Always have business cards so that you can always begin the process.

2. Know what your costs are and present them so you can know what you can do at cost. What it costs to get the car out of the driveway. Do your research and dont back down from this bottom line.

3. Tell the folks you need to know what they can spend- then tell them what you can do for what they have. Be able to do something know what it is in advance for every cent over your bottom line.

4. Request annual reports in the public domain that indicate budget and expenditures of agencies, schools etc....know what they have. Additionally expect other tellers to be honest with you about what they have been paid by the same organization.
Conrad B. 5/16/06
•••••
Response: I never print my fees in a brochure. I would rather talk to the client about it. I have a base fee in my mind. Then when quoting a fee I start there and decide if I want more or less. Travel is NOT included, nor expenses. If the venue is real close, like here in Fishers, I will probably discount and not charge travel or expenses.

After talking to the prospective client I decide where I will go with the fee. These things are very subjective. Travel and expenses are pretty easy to determine. I use "MS Streets and Trips" to determine that. I usually let the client arrange any needed lodging. They have better local connections that I do. The subjective things are harder. How difficult the show will be? Audience? What they want? Total time? Venue conditions? Who is the venue? How much can they afford? Et al. These are questions I ask myself about the venue to help me set the variation from the base rate.

Could I make a mistake? Yes and occasionally I have and think I should have charged more. Once I set the fee it is in concrete even if I find out later things were not as I thought. My goal is to set a price that will be fair to me and to the client.

Free shows? Yes I do a number of these. But these can be a trap so I am careful. Most performers have discovered the hard way that sometimes "free" means that is your worth. Some very worthwhile organizations will treat you like dirt if you are free. I know of and have experienced doing a free show only to get there and find you have been relegated to another time or stage because they used the money they would have paid you to hire another performer and gave your slot to them. I smile, say OK, and make a note to myself to never do a free show for them again, and let my friends know so they won't be caught too.

All I expect is to be treated as a professional and given respect. There are some that do that and I will do free shows for them anytime I'm available.

When you set your fee you are establishing your worth as a performer. AND you are establishing the worth of other performers. Undercutting or doing lots of free shows hurts other performers and our art. That says Storytellers are cheap and not worth much if anything, and the same for storytelling in general. We have enough trouble with perceptions as it is. Have you ever brought up storytelling only have someone say they knew about storytelling because there was this lady who came to the library and read them stories? Nice lady but it doesn't reflect well on true Storytelling. Storytelling will flourish as an art only if it has value. If we cheapen the value then we are diminishing Storytelling as a legitimate art.

Plus it hurts those who dedicate their lives to the art. These are the professional Storytellers that pay the bills with our fees. These are the Storytellers who can put the time and energy into telling. We don't have "real" jobs to go to and take away from our performing. BTW: I do think performing IS a "real" job. We put much into our performing so that audiences get good shows. That increases our worth and the worth of our art in general.
Bob S. 5/16/06
•••••
Response: Conrad wrote: It does not cost anything to tell a story....never has and never will. Check this out....put all of the money in your pocket on the table....

Yes, but it does generally cost to learn to tell a story WELL...
Leanne J. 5/16/06
•••••
Response: Not really.... Find a book or go on line....my irish stories are all there I put them there without charge they are free. Put all your money on the table. Count it. Read a story till you know it start with finding bones and then repeat and expand... Tell it.... Count your money again.... It should be still there- and worth the same if not well you just dont....count! Stories are learned and learned well as a part of life just as in any other way. I grow finger nails real well. No extra cost. Have fun making stories a part of life.
Conrad B. 5/16/06
•••••
Response: Actually, nothing is free. If I tell a story with out a monetary fee, I have still incurred the cost of
my time and energy ... . And, then again, maybe everything is free and we don't quite realize it.
Mary K.C. 5/16/06
•••••
Response: Ok I guess I should do this one more time.... take all the money out of your pocket count it and put it on the table... Run around the block- take as much time as you want. Count your money when you get back..... should be the same amount... leave it on the table.... run around the block this time taking more time or less time. come home count your money it will still be the same amount. therefore your time and energy are both free. Not only that it will have been a good use of time and energy you will feel better and have burned calories which you did not need.... same with stories.....if you tell them for free they will improve. But maybe some people were just made like parking meters- you have to insert coins in order for them to do anything. Of course anything you do for free can be done in your free time.
Conrad B. 5/16/06
•••••
Response: For those putting fees in a brochure or on their websites it's good to put the date that the fees will be reviewed...Example "All fees are guaranteed until January 2007" That way if they have your brochure for several years they won't get a shock when your fees have increased.
Marilyn K. 5/16/06
•••••
Response: A very good point Marilyn.... and one of the many reasons that I have never printed my fees in my brochure or on my web site.

For schools and libraries I do print my fees and include them with "most" mailings. On the schedule of fees, at the bottom in good size font, I print the words: "These are my normal fees but are not cut in stone. I will do my best to work within your budget. Please contact me and let's discuss all of the options."

In the past couple of years I have also began accepting credit cards.

There was once a school in rural NC that had very little budget for visiting artists. One of the teachers had just moved there from another school and knew of my work. They contacted me and we talked. They wanted me for a week-long residency but thier budget was barely enough to cover one show. I suggested finding a "partner."
A parent or business that could underwrite my visit.

One of the parents agreed to my discounted, week-long, fee as long as she could charge it on VISA. Viola!.... done and done.

Its rare that someone uses that option... but its good to have.

Some of my corporate clients have began to use direct deposit. One fear I had was turning over my checking account number AND social security number to accounting offices in India, where most of the out-sourced accounting is being handled.

I opened a checking account just for that purpose. I keep the minimum balance in it to prevent service charges and I only use it for direct deposit of fees and Paypal. Once the fee is deposited I write a check into our own personal/joint account. Its a little more work but it beats having the exposure.

Back to fees.... what a can of worms. I wish everyone well with it.

What works for me... may not work for you.... Find what works for you.
David Joe M. 5/16/06
•••••
Response: I've never accepted credit cards. Never had a problem. Never even had an inquiry except for companies wanting me to sign up to let them process the cards. I did have a minor problem recently. They paid in cash, $100 bills. I'm still trying to get rid of the things. Now I'm almost out of cash except for the $100 bills. Guess I go to the bank tomorrow.
Bob S. 5/16/06
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Response: Absolutely! I also put this in the insert where I can change it without changing the major part of the brochure.
Steve O. 5/16/06
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Added: When you walk into a store and want to get Microsoft Maps and Streets, do you expect to see a price sticker on the box? I may be that if there is a rebate like I just saw in Costco where there was a $20 rebate on a $34 product I may think "I need to update by current Streets program. I may not do that if the price is just a sticker "$14". I think if people know how important the product is by the cost (unfortunately the way we tend to judge) then if becomes important to them. My price list is on the insert I put into the brochure so that I can update it. With the way gas prices go, you must find that "Drive out of the driveway" that Conrad was talking about.
Steve O. 5/16/06
•••••
Added: I have promised myself that I will NOT let Conrad's rants about something that he knows nothing about get to me to reply to him. . . BUT! because he has apparently never worked as a storyteller, since it doesn't cost anything to tell a story, I thought we might mention something he does charge for.

Conrad, it doesn't cost anything for you to write a book! Yet somehow YOU charge to sell your books . But then since this is you and it "isn't Storytelling" it doesn't apply . . . you are quick to brag on how you go into a store and pick up CD's that SOMEONE has paid for to advertise, and paste them on your "Art Car". It seems that anyone who has such dedication to the art of storytelling wouldn't do something like that.
Steve O. 5/16/06
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Response: I have often worked as a storyteller- I have taught classes in storytelling and I have been paid to tell at libraries, museums and festivals. I do most of my telling for free because I am not always working at such venues and use my free time to bring people what I have....stories and music...
But....
I do not at all find that my worth is all dimminished when I tell for free and will do that where and whenever possible. I tell stories in line at the bank, in bars, to family members, friends, in grocery store lines to lines of people watiting to use restrooms.....actually because of compliments I believe my worth directly increassed each time. I always give out business cards to those who seem interested and I have generated business that way.
Why would you not tell as often as possible when you are free to do so?
When did I ever say you should not charge for your work?
I just said that it does not directly cost you anything.
And...
That you should charge for your work only when you think you have to
And....
You should be encouraged to tell for free as much as possible in your free time.
Wherever possible I give my books away....known to happen.
Do you tell for free whenever possible?
Or do you feel as if you should never tell for free because telling for free somehow hurts you as was pointed out in an e.mail concerning worth.
Note also....I pick up free cds and put magnets on them and then stick them to the side of the truck. No one says one has to use freely distributed materials for their original intent. These days I get most of them through unsolicited mail.
Note also that 99.9 percent of the time the truck is viewed for free and generally when we go to festivals it is on view for free. As are the four other artcars.
Don't you just love the attitude that some tellers really operate like parking meters- put a coin in and turn the handle or else you will never get a story....crazy!Stop by and see me at a festival sometime and just try to get away without something like ten stories...no coins needed.
Conrad B. 5/16/06
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Responsse: I have found my promo material stays around for years. I don't want it coming back to haunt me, bookings though yes. If asked I quote my base rate plus travel and expenses. If I can discuss it with them we may come to a better pricing. This gives me the flexibility that I like. I am also a Ventriloquist and a Magician and most of my peers in those fields don't list their price. Also when I go through my agent (not full time since I book most of my one shows but they do get me some interesting ones.) I know what I want and they add on to get what they want. There are no published prices to complicate things. BTW: If they book a show for me, then from then on booking MUST come thru the agent. I may talk to them but then refer them to the agent. To me it is an ethical thing. Plus if you bypass the agent they will never get you another show.

I also don't charge by the show or time. I have found for example you say $300/hour someone will come back with well how about a half and hour. In this case $300 is what I want to make it worth going and it doesn't matter if it is 1/2 hour or a whole hour. The same with shows. I would rather do several age appropriate shows at a school than have them all together because of a misplaced attempt to cut costs. By setting the price to be there, it frees me and them to plan what is best for the venue.

BTW: Companies love rebates because most people never apply to get them.....
Bob S. 5/16/06
•••••
Added: My biggest problem with his rants is that new people on the list may think he knows what he is talking about and believe him. Personally when they get too bad I just set the filter and that takes care of that.
BTW: Steve your tag line best says the difference between his philosophy and the rest of ours.
Storytelling is not for some people . . .
It's for all people!
Bob S. 5/16/06
•••••
Response: Hoo Boy! This is probably going to get a good discussion going!
I used to feel similarly, Conrad, that stories are "free." Then I started thinking of myself as a "professional storyteller."Hmmm--well, if I am a "professional" that means I need to get paid for my work. Then I thought about all the training I completed that helped me develop my craft--three college degrees, teaching experience, lots of storytelling gigs at no or very little monetary compensation. Then I add up all the time I put into learning stories, working on the stories, practicing the stories for friends and family, sending out publicity materials, working up my publicity materials, sending out the publicity materials, traveling to gigs, and all the money I spend on puppets, books, paper, computer software, web site design, etc. etc. etc.

Last year, I increased my gross income considerably over the previous year, but my net income was still only $1450.00after I calculated all my expenses. I'm not complaining--I LOVE what I'm doing, and fortunately my husband and I have some money to live on while I try to get to the place where I'm actually making a "living" doing what I love. So, I feel a push to charge for my stories--to somehow justify all the time and energy I'm putting into my career--which, for the amount of money I'm actually making, could be considered a "hobby." I know that someday I will be able to say, "I am making a living storytelling."

I tell plenty of stories for free--my friends and I have a monthly "full-moon storytelling" at which all the stories are absolutely "free," and enjoyed by all. I just performed my Mother Goose stories for my aunt's 100th birthday party, and I thoroughly enjoyed sharing my stories without charge. I tell stories without charge for my daughter's school class, and informally for her friends. But when I perform stories that I have worked into a program, and have spent countless hours perfecting, then I think people should pay me for my stories.
Judith W. 5/16/06
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CONFERENCE FEES
Query: Anyone out there have a separate set of fees for conferences, keynotes, workshops, etc.
Conferences fluctuate as to audience (health, education, buisness, etc.)

Some participant conference fees I have found for as little as $50 (one day conference with some big names Jon Kabat-Zinn, David Abrams, etc.); NSN (rather middle of the road cost) ... do they pay their presenters?; and then other conferences where participants pay $800 - $1000 + for a 3 day conference on a topic.

Any thoughts on conference fees, experience with same that you might pass along?
Mary K.C. 5/16/06
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Response: In my experience--largely focused on conferences in the not-for profit and membership association area is that there is wide range and usually multiple levels of fees paid presenters.

Some have set fees they pay--Big Names and another set fee they pay Regional folk.---They do not negotiate on these fees.

Some will hire one or two "keynoters" at higher rates because they will "draw" people to the conference.
Many membership and professional associations pay nothing or only a token honorarium or reduced conference fee. Some require presenters to register for the conference and expect attendance beyond thier own sessions. This is a system built up on the premises that presenting your findings to peers is a "professional responsibility" and part of your job. You and your agency, institution gain "standing" or credibility based on having thier staff and work reviewed and highlighted in "conferences". Often in these situations the presenters employers will cover expenses rather than conference organizers.

In the free lance area of motivational and keynote speakers the fees are usually substantial--minimally around $1000 and usually over $2000 plus expenses for a single appearance.

So one needs to know--what kind of conference it is, how it is funded, what the traditions are. The decision toparticipateas presenter is often more on the "opportunity" than on the "remuneration".
Karl H. 5/16/06
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Response: Conrad, what you don't seem to realize is that we all feel the same way! We WANT to Share Stories at every opportunity that we can. Every storyteller does that in their own way. It just seems that you cannot except the fact that others want to achieve the sharing process differently from YOU! Just as you feel "I do not at all find that my worth is all diminished when I tell for free ", You say "I pick up free cds and put magnets on them and then stick them to thesideof the truck. No one says one has to use freely distributed materials for their original intent. These days I get most of them through unsolicited mail." Aren't you diminishing the value of someones work by taking it for a purpose for which it was not intended . . . Do people who receive your non requested storytelling in lines feel that they are being imposed upon by storytellers and therefore diminish MY worth as a storyteller? Do you have the right to do that to another storyteller?

I do not feel that my worth as a Storyteller is diminished by charging for something that I do well. . . I do tell many programs free or at greatly reduced rates to groups that I feel do good work and cannot afford my regular rates. I personally would probably not tell stories in lines at the restroom, but everyone has to have their own thing. (Do you have a list of standing in line for the restroom stories?}

No one worries about you doing your thing if you agree that every storyteller doesn't have to boycott a festival because they don't serve beer and have individual venues under each tree . . . Of course a lot of trees would be helpful if you drink a lot of that beer . . .

I answer to your questions :
<That you should charge for your work only when you think you have to>
That is a pretty broad statement. Since I do this full time it means I should ALWAYS charge to support my family? I feel that I owe something back to storytelling for all that it has given to me. and I schedule those each month.
And....

<You should be encouraged to tell for free as much as possible in your free time.>
Again I need your list of Standing in Line at the bathroom stories so that I can do that.

And....
<Wherever possible I give my books away....known to happen.>
Which is it, Whenever possible or known to happen?

<Don't you just love the attitude that some tellers really operate like >
<parking meters- put a coin in and turn the handle or else you will never>
<get a story....crazy!>

I don't care if you are charging or giving it away unasked, If you consider yourself a storyteller you can NEVER approach a story by telling from your head instead of your gut. It isn't the charge that makes the story it's the storyteller. That is the "Parking meter approach" Not giving of yourself to make the story the best it can be. And NOT preparing for a program is not making it the best it can be.

<Stop by and see me at a festival sometime and just try to get away >
<without something like ten stories...no coins needed.>

Great! Where and what Festivals are you telling? I thought you didn't tell at festivals because they were run by money gouging festival promoters.
Steve O. 5/17/06
•••••

BLOCK BOOKING
Query: Do you give discounts for block bookings? And, if so, how much? And how do you, if you do, initiate the conversation about block booking? Sometimes we've had librarians come to us with the idea and that really works. But when we suggest it, often the librarian, doesn't follow through. When we travel a distance, it makes it more worth while for us to have several programs. How do you handle this situation?
Carol C. 12/20/06
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Response: Lots of my bookings are 80-130 miles away. I quote a price which is dependent on the program(s) wanted and the distance traveled. I always mention that part of my price is dependent on time and distance traveled and if there is another booking in the same area for the same day, both parties receive a discount. The discount depends on the total amount charged. Let's say it's $250 for a one session event at a library. I discount to $200 apiece if there's more than one booking. I don't usually go lower than that (though I have been open to negotiations, especially if it turns into a two-day gig.)
I know that for many, this is really cheap, but the panhandle of Florida is not floating in money and I love what I do plus, once folks catch on to how it works, I get a lot of repeat jobs with a schedule all worked out by the library folks.
Pat N. 12/20/06
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Response: I do that. Mostly with more distant shows. After I quote the first show I tell them how to save money with another close show. Then if they get someone, I discount the second show. add together, and divide by two. I use MS Streets and Trips to calculate total mileage and divide by two. If three then three. Usually can't do more in a day. If several days then I use similar methodology. The times I've used it have worked very well.
Bob S. 12/20/06
•••••
Response: I charge a set fee for a single show. If there are multiple presentations then I have a different price structure where the first is slightly lower and the subsequent a little lower than that. I figure I'm there so travel and setup are covered by the initial fee. Then, when I go into a school area for a week, I offer a discount of 10% to each school if I am booked for the full five days of a week. One half day open -- no discount.
Dale P. 12/20/06
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TRAVEL EXPENSES
Query: I know we have talked about charging for travel, but I've not needed it. I have an offer from 250 miles away. What would be reasonable to charge for travel in this case? How do you determine your charges for distance?
Mary G. 1/11/07
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Response: I was recently named to the Arizona Arts Roster and just got back home from orientation session for "Teaching Artists" I have been reading thier materials on grants etc. Their standards as it relates to this are 0-70 miles round trip no mileage reembursement or per diem. over 71 miles at .405 cents per mile city to city and $40 per day per diem. I have always used an internet map direction program to determine mileage and never had it questioned. These are the rates they will accept for re-embursements on grants.
Karl H. 1/11/07
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Response: I charge the standard IRS rate. I calculate the round trip mileage beforehand with MS Streets and Trips. Usually I let the booker arrange lodging if needed since they have better connections than I do. I don't charge mileage for the metro area and close.
Bob S. 1/11/07
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Response: Thought I'd jump in here. I agree with Sean, Yvonne, and Karl. If you are driving, charge the current mileage rate. Round trip is 500 miles @ .405 = $202.50. Per diem at $40. You should also charge for lodging. If it's a really long distance, I charge for two nights. Who likes to drive four hours home after a day of shows? Not fun and can be dangerous.

Like Bob, I let the client arrange and pre-pay for lodging (if it is a non-profit like a library or a school, they are tax exempt and can get the government room rate plus - they know the area and can book you a decent room near your venue). Allowing the client to arrange and pre-pay lodging also minimizes out-of-pocket expenses, which is great, especially if you have to wait for your fee to be processed.

So, you should charge at least $242.50. I have built those travel costs into my fee and quote my clients a flat rate like Sean Buvala. I have created a fee chart for myself so that I can quote fairly and quickly. It is organized by driving time - the longer it takes me to get there, the more I charge. My fee chart builds in my expenses except for lodging.
Dianna de L.C. 1/11/07
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Response: How are you travelling? For a distance like that, I would charge for the rental car, my guess on a tank of gas and the overnight costs of a hotel if needed. Typically, I budget $32 per diem for meals. That is the way I figure charges for my own work. It was/is also similar to the compensation provided by one of my sponsors where I am a contract speaker for their events. On a recent trip, where I drove, and similar in distance to the contract you mention above.
Sean B. 1/11/07
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Response: As far as Travel expenses, my accountant informed me (and I checked again before making this post) that the IRS/Federal Travel allowance is 48.5 cents a mile.
Lucia D. 1/11/07
Added later: When I made my first post regarding travel fees, I pondered a great while deciding if I should address my dilemmas. As it was my first post, I choose to be positive. But not two hours later, I received the below e-mail. I feel it was the "Universe" giving me the green light to address the problem. And perhaps others have experienced the same. I have taken out the name and the library so anonymity can be honored.

" Thanks for your call the other day and I am real excited about bringing Dr. D. Light to the library in ************. I apologize that I didn't look into this further before. I didn't realize over the phone how far away you were and how much mileage would cost. For us, nearly 100 miles away, it brings your fee up almost $100. Is there any negotiating we can do? We are a small library in space and budget and if we could bring the total cost down to about $225, that would help immensely. Is that okay or what is your bottom line? If there is not flexibility, I understand and I am sorry. Please get back to me."

I don't even want to enumerate how many times this has happened to me. I have lost so many jobs because organizations are either not willing to pay my performance fee (which is VERY reasonable) or the travel fee. For example: I was contacted for telling at a city's park & rec Halloween party. I spoke with the city's contact for over a half hour on my "dime" setting up everything. When he finally asked my fees, I told him that the performance would be $150 plus $25 travel. I literally heard him balk over the phone. He said he had to co-ordinate everything with his supervisor. Two days later, he called to say that they had hired a local teller for only $150 so he could save $25!!!

I truly believe that Wisconsin is different than many other states. The majority of people and organizations are exceedingly conservative and economical -or really don't have adequate budgets. When it comes to storytelling; they will go with the most inexpensive, not the best. And that is where my dilemma comes into play. Do I give myself away just to get a job? Some say, don't. But in all truthfulness, I lost more jobs last year than I actually had because I wouldn't do performances for a mere pittance. It seems almost every inquiry I get, they try to nickel and dime me down. When I won't go down as much as they want, they don't hire me and find some one who will do it for nothing or cheaper. It is truly wearing me down.

Back to the above e-mail. Do I spend 4 hours on the road and perform for 45-minutes for only $225?!!! Aghhh! It drives me crazy. At this rate, I am probably going to sit at home all Summer.

I am so happy for those of you out there who are getting hundreds of $ for travel and expenses. Well done!
Lucia D. 1/12/07
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Response: I think it's probably not just Wisconsin. I sent a bid of $550 to the inquirer, with an offer to do two for $700 if there were another nearby site for the same day. If she decides to do someone closer for less, that's fine. I was tempted to find her someone closer myself, but decided I shouldn't assume they couldn't/wouldn't want to take on what is actually a quite reasonable offer.

My own feeling is that one shouldn't work for less than a reasonable sum, unless of course there is a good reason. If you do what you don't want to do, you will probably regret it, and it will take its toll.
Mary G. 1/12/07
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Response: The answer to this is marketing, plain and simple. Some tellers are no doubt getting several times your fee. How? Why? You can be sure that not all of them, or perhaps any of them, are several times better than you. But they do have good marketing and reputation - neither of which necessarily depend on amazing abilities at storytelling.

There are various ways to sell your services and at least two ways to compete with other tellers who may get gigs that you want. One is on price - undercut everyone and you'll get more gigs, at least until you burn out and hate storytelling. Companies who compete like this start price wars and only the biggest survive - it's not a clever strategy unless you run a storytelling empire already.

The more sensible, sustainable, and pleasurable option is to compete on value. Business calls this 'value added' services and products. In other words you offer storytelling just like many other tellers (as far as uninformed customers know) but you also offer extras which are tempting, useful, genuinely of benefit to those who hire you. Now the customer can choose between a barebones teller or yourself who offer a fuller service for a bit more money. Of course your extras do have to be of value to your customers otherwise they won't pay any more for you.

So you have to think from their perspective. What would you offer, to make hiring you a perfect experience? Come up with a few ideas, think back to things you or others have done that have been appreciated (especially things which aren't too expensive or arduous), and then start some conversations with good previous clients of the kind who normally hire you. Ask them what they most appreciate about you and your services, what do you do well (especially if they've hired other tellers too to compare you with)? Ask them what else you could do to make their life easier or your gigs better/more beneficial/of greater practical use or convenience? And assuming they don't come up with even better ideas, start prompting them with your ideas for 'added value' asking them whether those extras would make a difference to whether they hired you or for how much. You'll soon discover what kinds of things you can provide without much extra effort but that would be appreciated quite a lot by customers, thereby making you much better value than the average storyteller.

The next thing is that you have to market yourself by making these extras and your greater value feature prominently on your publicity. You can't afford for customers to only notice your price and compare you on only that. You have to ensure that prospective clients can't fail to be clear on the extra special service you offer, and exactly how it will benefit them. You must put the benefits right up front, in words that customers will understand (ie everything is from their point of view not yours). You can even, if you want to break into much bigger markets, market all your benefits without ever mentioning that you are a storyteller until the final words of your brochure - to some customers they're more concerned with what you achieve than what methods you use. eg a school might hire anyone who can increase literacy and keep kids occupied for an hour, no matter what method they used. Not that I'm suggesting hiding the fact you're a storyteller, but understand that that's your point of view, your label for yourself, not necessarily that of your customers - make sure you know exactly why your typical customers think you're valuable. If, like many people, your typical customers don't yet know how great storytelling is then the word storyteller won't even be on their list of benefits they are prepared to buy.

We've had lots of past conversations on Storytell about how to give a good service, with great examples that you could adopt: ease of booking, helpful ways of reminding and confirming details, guiding people to make the gig successful, giving handouts on follow up activities, giving free or discounted recordings. And that's only the beginning - there are plenty more that might be far better than any of the above.

All of this is basic marketing, and is necessary for any business to understand. Since most people hate the idea and practice of marketing (believing it, falsely, to be necessarily and unpleasantly commercial), most storytellers market themselves really badly, and therefore lose lots of gigs to those who even have a little bit of marketing sense. One of the first steps in marketing is really pleasant: having conversations with past and prospective clients, and asking them what they really get from you, or would like to.

I've been thinking lately that I might offer some coaching around how to focus your business, do what you love and still get successful. Everyone's situation is different, so coaching is a good method but I'd do it for a group over the phone so that everyone can get both individual attention and learn from others. If anyone thinks they might be interested, tell me now and encourage me!
Tim S. England 1/14/007
•••••
Response: Oh, how frustrating for you indeed, but it that happens to all of us. I had a regular sponsor for a number of years who one year booked another storyteller for their annual event, mostly because they could not afford my "huge" fee anymore. The next year, they called me back to work again, now that they "we know the difference between storyteller and good storyteller."

This is all about marketing. Why are you better and worth $25 more than the other person? How does your sponsor know that? What do your marketing materials look like? Are you running great stuff and spending the extra money (it isn't that much) to produce a quality marketing piece? In my opinion, many of the festival tellers are not better than many local tellers...why do they get booked when others don't? Perception? Marketing?

If you work for too little, you will become burned our and frustrated. Focus..make your work focused....find the nitch that others are not filling...and fill it. Keep mailing to the people who didn't book you this time. You never know....

Most of the private (live and phone coaching) I do surrounds these areas. We hear these same issues again and again in our Storytelling 101 Telecourse. I evaluate a lot of marketing materials for others.

Why *should* a sponsor pay you $25 more? Why should you hold out for $25 more? What do you give them they can't get anywhere else in your region?
Sean B. 1/14/07
•••••
Response: Sean, I am going to answer your questions below to let you and the others know how really frustrating it was to lose that job for $25.

" This is all about marketing. Why are you better and worth $25 more than the other person? How does your sponsor know that? What do your marketing materials look like? Are you running great stuff and spending the extra money (it isn't that much) to produce a quality marketing piece? "

First of all, I agree that I really have to look at what makes me unique from all the other storytellers out there. I am very good (I have been told), have special abilities in sound effects, making animal characters and the story come alive and being able to keep the attention of babies and Alzheimer's patients...but does that make me unique? I don't thank so. Perhaps I should take one of your classes!

Anyway, back to the lost $25 job.....

The XXX Parks & Recreation Department sent out a call to storytellers for flyers to be distributed at their State Conference. They had a flyer that one could fill-in the blanks. I went the extra mile and had a personal flyer designed with four pictures of me in my various theme outfits. In the narrative, I informed them that I had been a recreation therapist for 20 years and had my Ph.D. in Recreation. I future added that my knowledge and skills of Recreation had made me a better storyteller of which I now had 11 years of experience. Cost of flyer $150!

I received the call because of the flyer.

During the conversation when he told me he was hiring the other teller because she was "cheaper", I fought for the job. I told him that the other teller was good (thought I would have a little professional courtesy) but I was much better. I expounded how much better I was and what I could offer. She still got the job.

She did NOT submit a flyer to the state convention. She does NOT have a web site. I have been told (even by that sponsor) that my web site is "awesome!". (And every month, I take time and $ to update it.) She does absolutely NO marketing. But she got the job because she lived there and was cheaper. It was a tough pill to swallow.

But that is the past. I will put this whole thing back there now that I have aired it out. I definitely will work on instituting Tom's & Sean's suggestions. Thanks again.
Lucia D 1/14/07
•••••
Response: I know many of us have been in the same position and it can be extremely frustrating. Just recently I was contacted by a woman who wanted to hire me for her son's birthday party in February. She read the newspaper article about a library show I will be doing in her town at the end of this month. She was very excited and interested in the program until we came to price. I actually offered to do the party at a 50% discount of my fee and knocked off $10.00 in mileage. (It would have been almost three hours on the road round trip.) Unfortunately, even the significantly reduced price didn't fit their budget. I could tell she felt awful about it but I couldn't drop the fee any further. What I did do instead was to encourage her to bring her son to the library performance and to introduce herself to me. Who knows, if they come and like what they hear, she may find a way to bring me to her home next year.

I know...we can die from exposure and we all have to make a living. In your post you said, "they try to nickel and dime me down." The difference in the fee they could afford was $25.00, not that huge a cut so I am guessing that this has more to do with the overall picture, i.e. residual disappointed and perhaps anger from all of the previous lost gigs due to funding. I would ask you for a moment to place yourself in the shoes of the person hiring you. They might have been thinking that $25.00 was not that big a deal to forgo, and couldn't understand why you wouldn't budge on the price. They had no idea that you experienced so many "nickel and dime" moments last year and so perhaps they dug in their heels further. An unfortunate tug of war where each person lost; they lost your fabulous talents, and you lost the gig.

When I can do venues at significantly reduced prices or for free I focus on the thought, "You never know who is in the audience." Last month I did a pro-bono fundraising performance, which meant five hours on the road as well. At the end of the venue a man from the audience asked for my card. He noted where I lived, just a few towns over from his sister. Here husband is the editor of the city newspaper next to my town and he promised to pass on my information. You just never know....

We can't say yes to everyone who cannot or will not meet our fees. However, if we are confident that those times when we do say yes will be one more step to making connections and the universe may answer us in some surprising ways.
Karen C. 1/14/07
•••••
Response: It seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but realistically, you're still stinging over losing your whole fee, and not just the $25. That's reasonable. But there is another way to look at this, for next time it happens.

Next time, quote them your normal fee plus expenses. If they tell you they are going with another teller who is cheaper, or they can't afford you, offer to match their budget price for the local teller they plan to hire. Tell them you will waive the additional travel fee ($25) this time, but you'd like the person responsible for authorizing the payment to be in the audience. Then, go out and do a kick ass performance. Perhaps you will receive your full compensation when they see and hear your value, or perhaps not. When it's over, if they don't offer the additional fee to you, ask them for an in-kind donation letter for the difference, and write it off on your taxes.

THEN, and here's the important part, with those best of intentions in place that you've planted in their minds by agreeing to save them money on a quality storyteller, after the performance, begin to mine their personal contacts for other jobs in the area. Ask them about other teachers, groups, or individuals they know who are as progressive as they are when it comes to imaginative learning experiences. Hey, tell them they had the foresight and courage to hire a storyteller so that children could use their imaginations, rather than just offering them another form of technilogical teaching. Then, engage them with the enthusiasm of a storyteller who wants to offer something their teaching friends, business aquaintances, etc. have been looking for. There's a good chance that the value of what you offered with your performance will be passed on to others, because, one, they have just paid for it and everyone wants to justify their expenses, and two, your performance is fresh in their minds, and they want to help out their friends. Get names and phone numbers on the spot, (don't just give them brochures which will probably sit in their offices). Forget the $25, as you're goal is to mine from them opportunity to make 10 to 50 times that in contacts.

Most important, if you ever have to take a reduction in your fee or expenses, do so with absolute clarity and faith in your mind, that something will happen at that particular job to more than make up for it. Attitude and faith go a long way to securing more than your asking fee in additional work.

This whole thread reminds me of some of the stories about Walter Russell, the great sculptor and artist. When he was young, he took a job as a bellboy at a hotel. The salary was $8.00 a month, but he was told that by the end of the season, most bellboys had accumulated about $100.00 in tips.

When he was offered his first tip, something deep inside Walter told him to refuse it. He said, "No thank you, sir." Shortly after, he decided he'd be the only bellboy to never take a tip. And he decided to be the best bellboy ever. He ran his butt off all summer long, more than honoring every request and refusing every tip, saying he received a salary and loved his job. The guests were overwhelmed by him. Many invited him to dinner parties and yachting trips, where he made lifelong contacts. They bought his sketches which he did in his spare time. That summer he made over $850.00 from selling his artwork to the hotel guests. And years later they bought his artwork because they remembered this special bellboy who wouldn't take a tip.
(the story above is from a book called, The Man Who Tapped the Secrets of the Universe, by Glenn Clark, about the artist Walter Russell.)

There's more than one way to pay the tab, if you're willing to let the paying party willingly give you more than the money they agreed to pay you.
Gregory L. 1/14/07
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Response: I want to emphasize the point Sean makes about everyone loses sales--doesn't make any difference what field you are in. As a consumer many times I comparison shop---usually products are not really equal but a variety of things will influence my decision--sometimes its price. We were shopping for a house--found one we liked---looked at it four different times and each time we were closer to making a positive decision--After the fourth time we saw another house looked at briefly and made an offer. While the houses were in the same general price range--and good homes--the view took us in the end. High pressure sales pitches--and sales people that push me for closure will almost always loose my sale and I won't return to their shop---I shut down on the brand.

You and I have have talked about this before and you frequently express that things are getting bad on the home-front i.e. Wisconsin. Colleen Sutherlund in Seymore (who in my book is an awesome teller and has the added advantage of mixing singing in the program) has a hard time getting anything but volunteer gigs around her home area but has done successful trips to Alaska and Australia New Zealand---using her very simple web page and email. No brochures.

At the orientation session for the XXX Arts Roster folk there was alot of talk about "teaching artists" the presenter says that is really big now--even a professional journal--and while people did the same things years ago the term really began appearing about 5-6 years ago.

One of the real marketing challenges is how we can make it clear how we can help them achieve their mission.

I have had experience with four computer repair services here in XXX and without a doubt the best one for quality and convenience is the least expensive one.
Karl H. 1/13/07
•••••
Response: This reminded me of some children who arranged their birthday party so they
could bring friends to storytelling at the Faust Park carousel as part of
the party. One girl liked her sister's party so much that she delayed her
own birthday party for two months so that she could bring her friends to the
storytelling. It was a delightful venue -- I wonder if I could get them to
resume storytelling there again. . . .

I like your philosophy of good things coming from these "unprofitable" jobs.
Marh G. 1/12/07
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Response: With all due respect, it's not all about marketing. It's also about institutions not having adequate funding levels to continue hosting quality programming, or in many places, not having funding at all.

Marketing helps, certainly. But many of the schools, libraries, museums, park districts etc where I work are struggling with budgets that either have been severely slashed, or simply have not been raised in 10 years or more. I'm seeing a distressing trend in Illinois libraries that have had their programming budget lines completely cut, and the only money they get for programs is coming from their Friends of the Library groups.

Perhaps we should all become pro sports figures. David Beckman of soccer fame has just been slated to make about 250 million in the next five years. That would pay for a lot of storytelling performances, conferences, youth mentoring...
Leanne J. 1/14/07
•••••
Response: I'd like to comment on that dilemma you have faced with folks wanting to nickel and dime you down:

I run a very tiny library in the shadow of XX, TX, in a community of 85% Spanish-speaking children. When I came here four years ago, I personally went to work bringing literacy to our community through storytelling and music to the local preschools around me, and the monthly time contribution has paid off in library attendance and checkouts to both children and parents. I have enjoyed watching them grow in literacy as families.

It has been a battle for the past three summers to get enough money budgeted to the library to be able to pay entertainers we have for summer reading programs for eight or nine weeks of June and July. At each annual budget meeting I am faced with city council members who don't even use our library and who have never attended a summer library program, so they "just don't get it." I know that our children need literacy-based programs, introducing them to the way the other parts of the world live, but there is little I can do about it. I have surrendered my pride to beg the local storytellers to fill the empty gap for me, and they have been so gracious, many coming every summer for the past three years, knowing their gas nor time will not be compensated. I don't mind begging from my friends, but as a matter of having been a professional storyteller myself, I will not ask other type professionals to reduce their fees or come for free. I do not feel that our children are being robbed in any way, because they are getting top notch tellers telling multicultural folktales from around the world, often with accompanied costumes and musical instruments. It does often make me wonder if they might get a different picture of library programs if they had the "ventriloquists, magicians, animal-presenters, mariachi bands, etc" that other libraries in our area offer. I know the kids have access to those other library programs, and I often advertise for those other libraries because I want our children to have more than I alone can provide. Still location and poverty are their enemies as with all parts of our country, and they end up having only what I can offer.

Consider that those who would nickel and dime you might just have low-vision city councilmen behind them, or reduced/restricted budget to work with. Don't begrudge them that begging, it is probably uncomfortable for them, at best. When it comes to our children, librarians with heart do whatever it takes to give them the best we can get for the nickel we have to spend. Nickel and diming often comes with our territory.

I'm sorry you have to work so hard for so little, but know that you are not alone. I am praying that your
way will be enriched with opportunities this coming year, that your stories will bring joy to all the ears they drift into. Go get them, Lucia, but know that you won't be sent to them all....some will be poor, struggling librarians like me, fighting to squeeze a dime out of that nickel, and you'll just have to say no.
Mel D. 1/13/07
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Response: Sometimes I've had people balk at paying a reasonable amount for travel, but usually they agree to pay it readily. I also have a very reasonable fee of $150 for a performance, and sometimes the travel expenses are more than the fee itself. For locations over 30 miles away, I charge .45/mile round trip (which is a little outdated since gasolene has gone up so much). One thing I do is encourage the venue to set up additional performances for me in their community on the same trip, and share the travel expenses--several times this has worked well for me.

I state clearly on my publicity materials that I charge for travel--so it doesn't surprise them when I tell them how much it will be.

I really like to set up a tour in a community--sometimes it starts with one school that wants me, and I offer a free performance to that school if they will set up at least four other performances at my regular rate. That way the travel expenses are shared by all the schools, and I get more work for my driving time. Even if the venue does not set up four extra performances, they still get a break by setting up one or two because of sharing the travel expenses.

Another thing I have done that has helped me feel positive about what I charge is to say an affirmation to myself such as: "I am worth every penny that I charge for my performances." Then if someone questions my fee, I feel confident in telling them that I have figured out the minimum that I can afford to charge, and I really can't go below that. If they want to hire someone else at a lower rate, then that is fine with me. This confidence comes across in my voice and words, and helps make the person who is hiring me know that they are getting a high level of professionalism for their money.
Judith W. 1/14/07
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Response: Last night I wanted to send a comment on this topic of booking for less than standard amounts, but had to run out for the evening. As might be expected from our group, much of this by now has been said. Some of what I want to say may be just "Variations on a Theme", but I hope the variations are a help.

Michigan's economic situation has been at the bottom of the country now for so long that we're mainly seeing programs at schools & libraries & recreation depts. if they can be paid by grants, library "friends" groups, or parent groups. Sometimes a community business is willing to sponsor a program, but it's a rare business that isn't hurting here. Even libraries supported well in comparison to other libraries are trying to stretch their budgets. I knew this going into full-time telling, but also knew I wanted to make this transition while the energy & the state endorsement via our arts directory was available to do it. That & a bit of outside income became available to help subsidize it. (It's not all I'd like & it's less than I expected, but without it this wouldn't have been possible. That shortage just adds to my own incentive to market myself -- always my weakest point since previously a lot of gigs found their way to me without marketing.) I've been doing showcases throughout my state & usually can tell when an area is truly trying to present a program & needs concessions to do it. _If_ I can afford to do the program & make the smaller amount they can offer, then it's up to me if I want to do it. It's also possible I can help the venue find added money just as has been mentioned here. In special cases I may donate some of my services because I consider their cause deserves my support. First I state what my normal fee is & how I cover travel expenses. In any decision to work for less than my fee, I only do it if it won't leave me feeling like the venue is taking advantage of me. This is important. How you feel will show in your performance.

A puppeteer I know went full-time after years as a librarian. For whatever reasoning he finally knew it was time to "make the leap" to full-time performing. In seeing his schedule, he works every possible gig he can get & goes with the fees he can negotiate. He does a lot of preschools because the audience age for puppets generally is narrower than for storytelling. His health isn't the greatest, so he has the assistance of a young apprentice for gigs needing full staging. Essentially his is a case of doing whatever it takes to get the job. I'm not sure what outside income, if any, he has.

There will always be areas & people that want a "bargain." You mention this, Lucia, in connection with Wisconsin. Wisconsin like Michigan, has a few cities, but lots of rural areas. When you talked about the bargaining mentality it reminded me of long ago hearing a librarian in a rural area talk about how it was all "greedy farmers." I remember being shocked over her calling the people of her area that. Over time I have thought about it & realize it's a mindset by both parties. Another comparison is that it reminds me of going to an antiques market. Some people believe in bargaining & some don't. Some sellers are firm & may even be insulted by being asked to take less. The thoughts behind the bargaining may be "you don't know what bargain you can get unless you ask" or it could be an attempt to stretch what money is available as far as possible. It also could be because that's the only way something special can be afforded.

There have been various ways about considering if you should approach the marketing differently, but it still comes down to IF you can afford to make concessions -- or IF you can afford to lose the gig. You'll never get all of them & wouldn't want to if you could. This is where you need to decide how you will feel if you make concessions. If it leaves you feeling like you shouldn't have done the gig for less, then that's your answer & needs to be considered.
LoiS S.K. 1/14/07
•••••

OLD POSTS
Query: I am curious what would be a viable fee you might request for the following storytelling residency program in a school (elementary - high school):
* Duration: 6 weeks
* Two 45-minute sessions with classroom & teacher
* 4 Planning meetings (45 min - 1 hour) with teacher
* Total of 16 session and/or planning meetings.
This program would also include a teacher - only workshop.
Mary K.C. 12/2/05
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Response: Is this local or on the road? If the latter, are they giving you lodging?
Skip M. 12/2/05
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Response: I am on the low end of the fee schedules, but I charge $2500 per week for an Artist in Residence Program. I realize that this is spread over six weeks and is not a single full week, but I would not go for less than $3500 plus expenses.
Steve O. 12/2/05
•••••
Response: I think I might emigrate.!! It would be very unlikely that a storyteller would earn more than about a third of that fee in the West of England. Over here the education system would pay per hour usually about 35 Dollars. You could maybe build in some travelling time say half hour each way but it would still not come to more than about 1000 dollars.
Alan W. England 12/3/05
•••••
|Response: So then...how do we shed light on the value of storytelling?
If the public doesn't value our work, how can we put a price on it? (Yes, some people really value storytelling, but many balk.)

I clearly recall playing on the school jungle gym as a child. I have many memories from the school playground. I cannot recall a single storyteller from my elementary days. I do, however, vividly recall Slim Goodbody and a Jazz Trio that came to our school - separately of course!

Are video games, computer labs, and designer playgrounds making storytellers a thing of the past?

It's happening in China. The Master/Apprentice relationship is dying. The storytelling venues and storytelling towns are dissapearing. There are few masters left and no apprentices to carry on the tradition. Kids there want technology and science, medicine and construction (and the NBA!).

Where is the master/apprentice tradition in the USA?
David V. 12/3/05
•••••
Response: Steve, t hanks for your input. I appreciate it greatly. What does your weekly Artist in Residence Program include?

Also, if anyone else has any input on fees for this type of residency or anything similar, I would love to hear from you online or offline.
Mary K.C. 12/3/05
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Response: So then...how do we shed light onthe value of storytelling?

There are as many ways to shed light on the value of storytelling as there are tellers ... as there are listeners ... as there are people who want to communicate.

If the public doesn't value our work, how can we put a price on it? (Yes, some people really value storytelling, but many balk.)

Generally, the people I talk with are very interested in storytelling. When storytellers carry the passion for the work they do ... they often find the work they want. The more I have let my own passion show ... the more my own confidence has grown the less of an issue I find with regard to this issue of value.

Also, some of the most negative folks I have ever heard talk about storytelling were, I am afraid to say "storytellers". Those it's been a while since I encountered this. Some artists (as well as others) suffer from this type of an attitude. I prefer not to sit around and gripe but get in there, let the passion flow and figure out a way.

Are video games, computer labs, and designer playgrounds making storytellers a thing of the past?

There is more than enough out there for everyone. Actually, the more computers and techy type things there are ... the more valued storytelling become.

Where is the master/apprentice tradition in the USA?

I'm not worried about the master/apprentice tradition in the USA. I don't lament. I mentor/coach as I can ... in fact, this is a part of my work. And who is the "master" and who is the "apprentice"? Are they not, in some ways (if both are invested) the same>
Mary K.C. 12/3/05
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Response: Usually 4-5 programs a day for five days working with students on how to tell stories and just storytelling programming. I usually will throw in an evening program for the community and maybe an in service training session on using storytelling as a teaching tool. Those kinds of things are negotiable and I would rather do that in the evening instead of sitting around a motel room looking at TV!
Steve O. 12/3/05
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Response: In the past, I've called a school, asked an English class if I can try out a new story on a class. (middle and High School)
From those events, I had rec'd jobs.
I am marketing, talking about the value of storytelling, whetting their appetite in the same telling.

I also visit schools in the summer, talk to the principal, teacher librarian,etc, The person-to-persoin contact has helped.
Call them back in the year.
I am sure many of you do this.
I think putting articles in the paper some free telling with a little philosophy on storytelling thrown in.
Stephen H. has a lot of ideas on selling storytelling.
Find out the PTO president, writer him/her

Last year, I wrote a letter to the editor for 5 local papers entitled "Why Arts"
I got responses and jobs.
In the area south of my home, I've had to lower fees because these places just do not have the funds.
But I charge the same for all those schools, never a different rate for one and not another.
Many of these are not new, but I am always surprised the number of people who have no idea what we do and that it has value.

I agree with developing a "Why storytelling list of ideas" a fund of ideas

Jim F. 12/4/05
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Response: Residency fees leave me very uncertain. The economy in Michigan is so far behind the rest of the country right now that it's hard even for VSA Arts to get school residencies. The schools are asked to pay a part of the residency & right now there are few able to do it even though special education money should be able to offer some assistance. Districts with good tax bases are penalized to help poorer districts, so even they are often feeling the pinch. I would love to offer residencies for VSA Arts simply because it does target special ed. needs while often working with mainstream classes & their fees for the resident artists are particularly low. So if even the low fees are hard to get districts to offer, I can't begin to picture a non-subsidized residency on my own.

Am I missing something or is it just a case of keep on waiting until Michigan finally improves economically?
LoiS S.K. 12/4/05
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Response: I just want to put out this request one more time ... just in case someone missed it. What I need is an idea of the fees charged for long term residencies .... those that extend over a period of weeks.

Assume local and/or associated with travel.

Several people responded to me within the week and I appreciate it, however, I feel I need a bit more information on this topic before I set my rates.

Perhaps, another question might be, how would one go about determining how the fee should be set in the first place. I know, for example, that Young Audiences has long term residencies, as do other programs ... perhaps I should be using similar rates?

Please respond to the group, or if you prefer off-line.
Mary K.C. 12/5/05
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Response: I have not done any long term residencies - yet. But I do know that the nearby area arts organization (XX Area Arts Council) reimburses artists at $45 per hour for each school residency, plus a paid 15-minutes planning time for each hour worked. I think most artists plan their residencies in 4-hour increments to get that extra hour of paid planning time.

XX is located about 100 miles from Chicago, in a very economically depressed area.
Leanne J. 12/6/05
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Response: the rates vary so much between areas. I think you hit the nail on the head and answered your own question. Call Young Audiences nearest your area and ask what their fees are based on the length and particulars for your proposed residency. The only draw back is sometimes YA charges substantially lower than the prevailing rates. I have often been surprised at the number of discrepancies that exist from area to area among Young Audiences chapters. IN which case you may want to double check with a more established teller in your area.

For a standard rate, I usually tally the total number of hours I am expected to work. Multiply the number of hours by my standard rate. This gives me my top dollar amount. Next I figure what my costs to and from the engagement would be. Then add materials. This is your total dollar amount and your high rate. Next ask the school how much they have allocated for the residency. Subtract this amount from your high dollar rate (expect a substantial discrepancy). If the school is not forthcoming with an exact rate ask them to give you the ball park figures for the residency- their low and their high dollar amount. Settle on an amount that feels fair to you lower than your high dollar amount and the prevailing rate if you are well established and can get the school or district to agree. Have your proposal drawn up to reflect the costs involved itemizing actual expenditures to be incurred. I have gotten schools to agree on a supplemental fee to cover additonal supplies needed.

Once you have this infomation combined with the rate Young Audiences gave you determine which rate works best for you based on your personal needs and what they are willing to offer. In some cases it may not be worth your time involved to proceed. (I have opted not to give the residency when I knew the school could afford to pay more) Generally, most schools are fair and will pay you according to the prevailing standard. Other times the rate is not what you would like, but you can live with it. Also weigh in if this is your first residency or do you have substantial experience giving residnecies? I am sometimes swayed by an affinity for a certain school, or a desire to work in a specific area or with a specific population. Is this a school that has a difficult time obtaining funds? When I was just starting out, I often agreed to a low rate because this gave me hands on experience and provided needed services and some of the inner city schools could barely afford it, but desperately needed the services.
Angela D. 12/6/05
•••••

QUERY
At the risk of sounding nosey, I'd like to ask the following questions and hope that some will be willing to answer either on list or directly to me. I'd be especially interested in hearing from Canadians.
1) What is the length of your programme offered to schools?
2) What is the size of the audience that you will take at one time?
3) Is your fee all inclusive -- mileage, accommodation, expenses?
4) Within parameters, what's a fair price for a 50-minute presentation to audiences of approximately 100.
Dale P. Canada 11/29/06
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Response: 1.) Schools usually have a length based on their schedule. I like shows from 45-60 minutes. I don't like shows less than 20 minutes. Other venues I usually go for these lengths with preschool around 20-30 minutes.

2.) Size doesn't matter to me. I've done from a few to close to a thousand. A nice size is 20-50.

3.) It is for close shows. Beyond that fee plus travel expenses. Close is a judgment call each time. For lodging and air fare I usually let the booker arrange them. They often have connections I don't. Driving I use the current IRS rate. I calculate the mileage with MS Streets and Trips and set it in advance so the client knows the total cost.

4.) This depends on location. The market varies. In large metropolitan areas it can be high. For my area I have a set rate and then vary from that depending on depending on the location. Birthday parties and preschools here don't pay my full fee so I discount, sometimes deeply. Accordingly I won't go far for that. I have occasionally gone up from the base if it looks like a very complicated venue. If I were going to Chicago I would go well above my base since that is the market there. To travel to an area with a low market I probably would not do. I could not afford to go below my base. Personally I do not charge by hour or even number of shows. I find that encourages the booker to start to manipulate the show for the best economic advantage. That is not always best for me. Several age-appropriate shows is better than a big show with all ages. I find out what they want, set the fee, then stay with it even if they want changes unless it dramatically increases the obligation. That way the show(s) can be structured to be the best for them and me. I only ask the there be time for reset and rest.
Bob S. 11/30/06
•••••

QUERY
We always give clients an evaluation sheet to fill out and ask (on it) permission to use any quotes. Since the summer we have had maybe 50% of them returned to us. We give the client a SASE to use. This seems to be a change from past years, when 90% of clients returned the evals. We've been trying to get a quote from a museum which hires us every year, but no luck!! ;-( It seems the ones we especially want quotes from don't return the sheet. Do you have any suggestions for getting a better return rate?
Carol C. 12/1/06
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Response: I do the same thing and I have had great results, but there are always those few who don't follow through. One time I gave the librarian a gentle nudge and asked if it would be easier for to fill out an email attachment and send it back. Worked like a charm n that situation. I think folks are just so tired of the paper shuffle that some prefer an attachment, but I always ask first.

In addition to the evaluation form I include a cover letter that thanks them for their time; I stress the importance of their feedback in continuing to offer programs to fit their needs. I am sure you do the same but on the off chance that you don't, it might be something to think of next time. I have a standard letter and just fill in the blanks with the persons name and mention the theme and location (libraries/schools/etc.) of the show to personalize it.

I also send a thank you note after each show and mention that I look forward to their feedback. Just another gentle prod. Hope this helps.
Karen C. 12/1/06
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Response: We tried this approach for awhile, and ended up doing something different.

Teachers have to fill out so much evaluative paperwork these days! Much too much. That kind of thing can get sickening, really quickly. Filling out a survey for you is a big favor. If you're asking for them to do an evaluation, you should really want an evaluation-- especially, what did we do wrong? (You usually know what you're doing right.)

I think with us, they sensed that what whatever we thought we were after, mostly we were looking for positive quotes, and thought "why bother?"

Now, we wait until we get a good feeling-- great show, positive vibes, extra-enthusiastic and literate-seeming contact person-- and ask for a letter of recommendation. We can xerox the whole letter, and use quotes from it too.

If all you want is quotes, you might even just ask for "a quote"-- there's no law against collecting them orally. (We haven't done this, I don't know if it works.)

The best reason to have an evaluation sheet is to find out what people think of what you're doing, and *especially* (if they're nice and brave enough) what you're doing that they didn't like. If they do that, they'll be doing you a big favor, whether you like it or not. Mostly people don't like doing it, or getting it.

When the waitress comes over to ask us how it was, interrupting our conversation about how the BBQ was cold and we ordered curly fries not home fries, nine times out of ten we say "fine," leave the usual tip, and think about eating somewhere else next time.
TimJ 12/1/06
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Response: Tim, your post makes me think about foregoing the evaluation form altogether, or maybe giving them a self-addressed envelope and just say, "if there was something in my program you think could be improved, or if you just want to express your enthusiasm about the program, I'd appreciate hearing it." I've received enough forms back now that I know I'm doing a good job, and I have enough quotes to put on more publicity than I'll ever use. If I do a new program, and I want some quotes about that program, I can ask my trial audience to give me some feedback--after all, they are getting a free show (sort of my "dress rehearsal"), and with a new program I am VERY interested in finding out if they have any suggestions or comments. I usually just ask my trial audience some questions about the program afterwards, and their comments have been very helpful.

Getting back to Carol's question--if you want some quotable quotes about your museum programs, just be up front and ask for them--tell them you need them for publicity (and get permission to use them at the same time.) If you have established a personal relationship with someone (probably the person who hired you), ask that person. I also got some very nice quotes from audience members--not just teachers or librarians. I had a small audience once, and I just passed out stamped envelopes and evaluation forms to most of them, and most of them sent them back! I got some very useful comments.
Judith W. 12/1/06
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Response: TimJ wrote: The best reason to have an evaluation sheet is to find out what people think of what you're doing, and *especially* (if they're nice and brave enough) what you're doing that they didn't like.

I have another use for my evaluation sheets. I put them in plastic sheet protectors, file them in a big 3-ring binder, and take it with me to showcases. When potential clients ask me for references, or lists of where I have performed, I invite them to page through the accumulated evaluations. It's gotten me a couple bookings.

And a 50 percent return is actually pretty good. I include mine with my thank you letter, so they've had a couple days to digest the show and see the results.
Leanne J. 12/1/06
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Response: I too send thank you letters with an evaluation form and an SASE, and get a very good return rate, about 80%.

I also include other things in that mailing--like bibliographies that might be of interest, or webligraphies, things like that. I've had good feedback from that extra bit.

Recently at a school gig the prioncipal made copies of my evaluation form and distributed it to the teachers, then mailed them all back to me. What a guy! I got tons of great quotes because of his efforts.

For him, I'd included some lesson plans and a bibliography--these weren't required parts of the gig, but he appreciated it.

I'm enjoying reading what others do to elicit quotes and evaluative remarks. I like the emailed form, and also the survey approach TimJ suggested.
Added: It's a good idea to do a new quotes list after a couple years, especially if you're promoting ot a place you've been before. So sending out the forms at least periodically is a good idea.

I like the audience response forms too. While we want to know that we're pleasing the ones who pay us, we also need to know how the audience feels.
Granny Sue 12/1/06
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Response: I think I responded to/thanked everyone who emailed suggestions about getting the good quote. Great suggestions, by the way! So here's another question.

The museum we are trying to get a quote from has hired us for an annual event two years in a row. Each time the person who hired us has left before or on the day of our program. This year the Education Director was the person who met us the day of the show. there was another event after us, so she couldn't be there for the whole show. But, after I said to her, "We'd love a quote to use on our website" she said to give her the eval and SASE.

Now, it's been only a week, but we've received nothing from her. and the thank you note should have jogged her memory. do you think we could email her, reiterate how valuable a quote from her would be in our publicity and ask her to just email a quote. She was there several times during our hour-long performance.

What do you think?We don't want to alienate her as we'd like to be part of their holiday programming next year. Should we just hope that the third time's the charm and wait till next year? It's not as though we're lacking great quotes. It's this one we're really after.

Thanks for your collective wisdom.
Carol C. 12/2/06
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Response: If it's something you REALLY want...promise them one of your CD's. Heck, I'll send you an eval, for one of your CDs and... I've never heard you!!
Marilyn K. 12/2/06
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Response: Well, here's the irony. the Museum Shop carries BOTH our CDs and plays the store copies!! So I don't think that'll do it.
Carol C. 12/2/06
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Response: I'd say, that if the Museum Shop carries your CDs, and plays the store copies, and if the Museum books you every year to perform, you should consider yourselves fortunate indeed, and not keep bugging the coordinator for a quote. They like you, they really like you!

And they are probably short-handed and really busy. Every museum I've worked with has been chronically understaffed, and the burn-out rate is incredibly high.
Leanne J. 12/2/06
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Response: Clearly they like you and what you do - is it possible this person does not know what to say? If you have not already tried this how about helping them help you - send them a few examples i.e. some people have said things like -
Ellouise S. 12/2/06
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Response: Firstly, a bribe is effective. Make people want to return the feedback form. Make their work filling it in a real bargain compared to what they get in return. Make it clear what benefits they will get from whatever you are giving them - don't assume they'll know why they would love what you're offering. Giving a CD was mentioned, but that's extravagant with both your time and money. A high-value but low cost alternative would be to give a link (after receiving the form back) to a secret web-page on your site (ie one without any links to it) where they can download a really useful 'special report'. This report would be a practical, helpful, useful article of 3 pages or so that is appropriate and relevant to the receiver. That means you need to think, or ask, what they would find helpful and perhaps have more than one to choose from depending on the type of gig. Such an article shouldn't be difficult to write, it's just a result of your experience and knowledge, and some storytellers give these out free anyway. For instance a guide to making the best use of storytelling, or a tip-sheet on follow-up activities after a storyteller has visited. You could even get permission from someone else to distribute their article, and use that.

Secondly, Angela's suggestion of doing a phone interview, and writing down their comments (or recording if you can't write that fast) is very effective. Your phone call gives a chance for the person to re-experience the good feelings from your gig as well as wanting to be polite, and that will make their comments full of emotion and emphasis - really great for quotes! Also of course it gives you a chance to dig deeper into any answers, and get more detailed feedback about any issue that pops up, including problems. The whole thing can be pretty brief, not unwelcome, no need for a bribe, and leave the person with nothing extra on her to-do list.

Thirdly, another strategy is to get in quick, to strike while the iron's hot. For this you can't ask too many questions or too much detail, but use the energy and immediacy of the gig and people's response. You demand the feedback on people's way out, either literally or for some point in the aftermath/wind-down period. You'll get stronger emotion while it's still fresh. Of course this can be an awkward time to ask, but if you keep it short you can still stand your ground. You could combine this with the oral approach to avoid the person having to write things down, and could use a dictaphone to capture it for later transcription. You could still have good set questions you always ask, to keep consistency and quality.
Tim S. England 12/3/06
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Response: As a busy museum person who works with other busy museum people, I have another thought.When you're the person "in charge" of an event, you simply aren't the best evaluator of performers! Even if you're present for part of a performance, you're probably resting up making mental lists, worrying about the juggler who was late or the broken ice machine or something else that isn't going as smoothly as planned. You put on a responsive face, but your attention just can't be given over fully to one performance in a busy family day. Of course you are grateful for those great performers who are there on time entertaining your audiences, but for the life of you, you couldn't name a single story they told or a song they sang or tell why the audience was "captivated."

I think it is a good idea to call and tell her that you are so proud of being a part of their great museum's programming for a second year in a row that you'd like to include it on your brochure, and would she be able to put you in touch with someone who saw the program to get a quote. There was probably another staff person or museum docent who actually DID watch and love your whole program who would be honored to be quoted on your brochure (Joe Smith, Docent, Pinetree County Museum) and who could be very specific about something y'all did that was truly terrific. Then I'd call that person and either write down what they say or ask if they would email me with any commments that might help someone else decide whether or not I'm the right person for their venue.

I like to use "helpful" because fifty "They were great!" comments is not worth nearly as much as one "Either we were enchanted, or Thumbelina appeared in her hand before our very eyes. Even now, I'm not sure which!" or "They arrived early, were fully set up and prepared, and ended right on time. They even managed to overcome a low mic battery with grace and flair!" which is the kind of detail a staffperson or docent dedicated to your stage might be likely to know that the person who hired you wouldn't--or would know only second-hand.

And, as Angela said, the museum person who wouldn't answer can now check you off her to-do list! (And do I ever LOVE checking things off my to-do list!)
Mary Grace K. 12/3/06
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Response: Thanks, Mary Grace. I think you are right on about this. Last year, the person who hired us was going on maternity leave THAT DAY. She stayed for the entire program, but never sent back the eval. Understandable. This year her replacement hired us and she left for another job 2 weeks before our show. So her boss, the Educ. Dir. was in charge of getting us situated, but also had another program after us to see to. She actually never came to say goodbye or even to arrange for security to open the elevator for us. I realized later that she was taking tickets for the next show.

So,especially in this situation, she was not the best person to do this.

I think your suggestion of another staff member might work. Though it might end up being a security guard!! they are very short staffed. I appreciate your commnets as you are right there "in the trenches," as they say
Carol C. 12/3/06
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Response: Mary Grace, thanks for the insider's perspective---there's something about needing to walk in the other person's shoes--to understand their responses. True to your name you are gracious.
Karl H. 12/3/06
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Response: I can relate to Lucia's experiences with having a reliable income instead of relying on gigs that may or may not pan out. I want to share an idea that came to me the other day, that I'm hoping will offer me a more reliable income:

I plan to talk to preschools in my area about coming to their schools on a regular, weekly basis for a monthly fee. I figure if I can get at least ten schools to pay me about $100/month to come four times during the month to tell and work with the children, I will have a steady income of $1000/month. I would devote one or two days to these visits, leaving the rest of the week for other gigs.

This plan would allow me to get to know the children I'm telling to much better, and I can build on their experiences each week. I would be the "resident storyteller."

Has anyone else tried such a plan? If so, did it work out?
Judith W. 1/17/07
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Response: I don't know if an English experience is relevant here but the good deal you are offering might work against you. In 1990 in most of the UK arts funding changed and schools lost their subsidy. As most of the schools I visited were not in the richest of areas I offered myself at a cut rate so the schools would have ended up putting the same amount to the cost as they had before. I worked out, like you, that I only needed a certain number of schools to make a living. The result was that the poorer schools didn't even have money to pay the reduced rate due to budget cuts and the better off ones didn't think I could be any good because I wasn't charging enough. It took me eight years of gradual raising of of my my fees to get back to a level people took seriously.

I have done some regular work in resource centres for adults with learning difficulties charging only for the hour session, about $50.00, since then and found three centres
provided some sort of income but even then it became difficult to schedule in full days for customers who wanted to pay a proper day fee.

To get the same $1000 you are talking about you would only need four schools a month at $250 for a day or half day to get the same money and you would have the other twenty six days free.

Ten schools a month would mean forty sessions with a lot of travel which leaves you little free time and a minimum income.
John England 1/18/07
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Response: One of the things that I find frustrating in doing one gig at a time is that I spend at least four hours for each 45 minute program, when I count preparing material, sending out publicity materials, handling the contract, getting dressed (I wear a costume as Mother Goose), driving there, being there 1/2 hour early to set up and be ready, talking to teachers afterwards, driving home, taking off the costume, etc. If I have several schools that I go to routinely, I'll do them all on the same day--should be able to do four to five a day with time in between for travel. I'll do the same program at each school, and will only have to put on the costume once in the morning. I've found when I've toured, and performed four to even five times a day, I am energized by the experience, while I find that doing one show one day, and another a week later depletes my energy. I am not getting very many gigs from schools--I think because they don't feel they can afford my fee (which is $150 plus travel). I want to work more, and even though I'll be getting less per performance, it will be steady work. I'm substituting in the public schools now, and only get $75 for a whole day of work, so working a day for $125 sounds pretty good. Plus, I'm thinking of the benefit for the children--they will be able to build on what I'm offering each week, rather than just have one visit from me--as powerful as one visit can be, I think continued exposure to what I offer would be best.
Judith W. 1/18/07
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Response: Can you really fit in five performances a day? Of course, even four would be better than subbing -- more fun, too.

I performed twice today at the Early Childhood Center near my former high school (which now has a new scandal, a teacher allegedly stealing money from the prom fund. I am SO glad I'm gone). One of their teachers won me in our Friends of Children Raffle (they bundled my offer of storytelling with the baby hat and book of my father's stories -- when she put in her raffle ticket, she hadn't even known that the storytelling was part of the deal). I told for the morning class, had lunch with the teachers, and then told for a smaller group in the afternoon. They were so cute! It was great! They have a high number of special needs children, so there was even more antsy behavior . . .but mostly they were attentive, and so much fun! I told them that I haven't found myself wanting to substitute, but I would make time for them, and that if I did, and they made time and space for stories, I could be persuaded.

BTW, especially for the large a.m. group, the portable sound system was oh-so-helpful. In fact, I've read that some schools are wiring the classrooms for sound, so the teacher can be clearly heard by all students without voice strain. . . .that would be pretty ideal. (I'll bet it could be done through the SmartScreen system. . .)
Mary G. 1/18/07
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QUERY:
I know we run into this from time to time, quoting fees for nonprofit agencies. I usually set aside a number of pro-bono and reduced rate shows during the year for those agencies I wish to support and I am very generous in the fee reduction I offer.

Last week I was contacted by someone who is on the planning committee for a venue in September. They will be showcasing a number of artisans, family events, etc., and wanted to include storytelling. After quoting my fee I found out they were a nonprofit organization; I offered to do two shows for the price of one and reduced the mileage rate significantly to less than half. (it is approx. 100 miles round trip). I could tell by the momentary silence on the other end that this was still viewed as fairly expensive. She will meet with the planning committee and get back to me in a few weeks. While I would love to do this venue, I feel I have given them a more than generous cost break and don't plan on lowering it further.

So my question to all of you is besides doing a venue for free, what price break do you normally offer nonprofit agencies? I know this will be different for many folks and will vary with the venue but I thought it would be an interesting questions to throw out into cyber space.
Karen C. 1/20/07
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Response: I do not have any hard or fast rules, but I like what a friend told me once. He is a full time performer - actors, singer, songwriter, writer etc. He looks at a venue and see if it meets any of the following criteria: 1. Does it pay? 2. Will it help me grow as a performer or person and 3. Is it for a worthy cause that I really care about? He tries to choose venues and projects that meet at least 2 of the 3 criteria. So at times, he doesn't get paid or paid very much, but, of course, he always has his CDs to sale. Also, since he is supporting a family, criteria #1 is enough for most jobs.

Since the job is a bit of a travel and if you do not really feel in invested in the non-profit's cause, I would probably stick to my guns. I certainly cannot afford to take all of the freebies that come my way.
Wendy G. 1/21/07
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Response: We're more flexible about rates than we used to be-- like lots of folks, I guess-- but here are a couple of factors to think about that may not be immediately obvious.

(1) If you start reducing your fee for special cases there is a real chance that this will become your new fee. Every once in awhile, maybe, somebody'll want to give you more than your rock-bottom fee, but by and large not: sponsors-- like everybody else-- don't like paying more than they have to. And they talk to each other about who they've hired, who was (and wasn't) good, and how much they cost. They can even get competitive on how good a deal they made. You don't want your "good" sponsors feeling resentful, or like they've been taken.

(2) Many times, the ones who are least able to find the right kind of money to pay you are not great sponsors in other ways as well. Some of the worst situations I've ever been in have been charity gigs.

(3) It's natural a lot of people won't be able to figure out why you charge what you do. You should try not to take it personally. They don't know. Why should they? It's not in their interest to know, especially if by not knowing they can influence you (somehow) to do something that's good for them. Don't buy into a debate, be friendly and positive and informative; don't argue; stay noncommittal until you make up your mind, then (if necessary) use the broken record technique* until they understand.

*broken record
A technique of assertiveness training.
The way we're set up, the last person to talk in an argument wins. (Some good stories about this.) It's easy to get worn down by somebody who doesn't accept your central point. The solution is not to argue. Let them argue, and follow each of their statements by simply repeating your main point. Works best with a little mirroring. Sample

That's much higher than we can pay! That's too much money!
I understand that my show may not fit into your budget, but my fee is X and I can't work for less.

But we need a storyteller! We really need you!
Thank you so much, and of course I'd love to come , but my fee is X and I can't work for less.
(etc)
TimJ 1/21/07
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Response: Karen wrote: >So my question to all of you is besides doing a venue for free, what price break do you normally offer nonprofit agencies? I know this will be different for many folks and will vary with the venue but I thought it would be an interesting questions to throw out into cyber space.<

I don't really offer a "price break" so to speak. I have a set rate for small, not-for-profits that are not Libraries or Schools. The rate is $150 plus mileage for a single performance of 45 minutes or less. I live out in the middle of nowhere, so mileage is usually a considerable cost.

I'll discount that fee slightly for local groups (and I do mean local), but now I set a cap of no more than one of those per month. I was getting a lot of little clubs and service organizations who wanted Irish stories in March for $50 plus a meal. (Irish stories are one of my specialities.) That was fine the first two years we were out here in the new place, but they take way too much time. Especially the ones who insist on having a "short" business meeting between the luncheon and the program. Argh, one
"short" business meeting lasted 45 minutes, and from the time I left home until the time I came back it was a six-hour day. For $50. It was especially aggravating to listen to their budget report, having dickered me down to a ridiculous little fee and then hearing about how they were spending thousands of dollars on other projects. The lunch was good, though, and that little group of ladies has referred me to many other groups, several that have paid my full free, so it all works out in the end. And most of the time the lunches are good!

One thing I did when I first started telling stories full time was calculate my daily income from my regular job. I keep that in the back of my mind as my bottom-line. When the fee dips below that level, I really need a good reason to accept it, seeing as how I gave up my day job for this. Being married to an accountant helps me stand firm on this. Having a new car and a car payment helps, too.
Leanne J. 1/21/07
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Response: Elizabeth Ellis now has a business manager and a crafts person on her team as well as her own storyteller self. Actually, they are all her. It helps her to think of her different professional roles as different people. (She has a workshop on this, by the way.)

She reports that when she says, "I'm sorry, but my business manager will not let me accept a gig for that amount of money" people always reply, "Oh, he won't? Well, maybe we can pay you more."

I tried it once and it worked for me, ah us, ah me...
Kate and my business manager... 1/21/07
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Response: Well put, Karl. Not all non-profits are charities. I am working now with a company in the Chicago area that is a not for profit organization, so their mission statement reflects their focus on people, but they are not a charity in the sense of working with impoverished young people for example. They are not paying full corporate rates, but they are not paying as little as the inner city library near me pays..when they can pay me. I also echo the fact that there is a $$ difference among even the same types of non-profs. For example, I worked in some groups where a $50 payment was impossible for me to pay for an outside speaker. I've worked for others where I could gather $300 in 30 minutes to pay a speaker from the "pocket change" of one or two parents of the kids I was working with.

I find it best for artists to choose the charit(ies) they want to support and do the best they can at little or no charge for those one or two organizations. Other non-profs that call can be referred elsewhere if they can't pay. We can't do it all.

Attitude of the potential sponsor counts, too. If an inquiring sponsor calls me and then berates me for "how high" I am charging or for even charging a non profit at all, the call quickly ends. If they call and acknowledge I've got kids (my children) to feed, respecting my need to make a living, I will do everything I can to make it work out for everyone. Mutual respect is good for all involved.

Sometimes, tho', it just can't work out, no matter how worthy the cause.
Sean B. 1/21/07
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Response: I also like to provide my services for nonprofit organizations. I have offered to come to Head Start preschools in our area for $25 instead of my normal $150 because I know that usually that fee is paid by a teacher at the school, since Head Start has zero dollars to pay for storytellers. If I have to travel more than 30 miles away, I will ask the organization to pay for my travel expenses, and sometimes I will perform for free, depending on the organization and situation.

One thing I would like to get started in my community is a "Storytelling Foundation" that would be supported by local businesses and corporations. The sole purpose would be to provide payment for storytellers when nonprofit organizations do not have the money to hire them. Preschools (such as Head Start) would be eligible to ask for small grants from the foundation to hire storytellers, as would other non-profit organizations. They wouldn't have to give the foundation a complicated grant proposal, or anything like what our state arts council requires--they would simply request the money to pay for a storyteller.

Of course, as with a lot of my ideas and dreams, I don't seem to have the energy to put it into reality. Maybe some day . . . .
Judith W. 1/21/07
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